Confidence Check: Market Corrections, Pricing Pressure and People-First Leadership

# Before the Weekend - Episode 7 Corrected Transcript

Lightly corrected for readability, speaker names, punctuation and obvious transcription errors. Conversational wording has been retained.

Kasey McDonald (00:05)

Well, welcome to Before the Weekend, your go-to real estate podcast, where we are cutting through the noise and delivering what truly matters. I'm Kasey McDonald and I'm with my fabulous co-host, Peter Schravemade. And each week we are discussing what's coming up in real estate, what's been in the news just in time before you crack a beer. How's your week been?

Peter Schravemade (00:29)

Busy, but good. Full is the word I would put it. I do distinctly remember a time where you and I could travel fairly freely from airport to airport and have it not affect us greatly. Another sign of age. Although I have to say that was some kind of record. Five keynotes in four cities in less than thirty hours is a personal record for me. I don't know if I want to do that very often. Yeah, yep. It was a good effort and lots of fun. Good to see everyone around the traps in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide. So yeah. That has been a big week. What about you?

Kasey McDonald (00:58)

Nice effort. Amazing. Yeah, look, busy, busy week, obviously, with the Real Flow team, out and about seeing customers. So I've done a bit of travel myself as well this week, more in the regional landscapes, but actually really enjoying getting back out and hearing, listening, seeing what's going on in the ground of our real estate industry. And I think for us this week it's probably a bit of a confidence reality check, maybe I think is what I'm hearing, seeing out there. We've got buyers becoming more cautious. We've got investors reassessing policy. At the same time, we've got auction clearance rates softening, property prices through Sydney and Melbourne are dropping. But as well, I had the pleasure of interviewing Avi Kahn from Ray White AKG, where we really focused on leadership culture training, and he shared his thoughts on where the industry is going. So really looking forward. for our listeners to hear that interview coming up in our podcast.

Peter Schravemade (02:13)

Yeah, and An action-packed week as far as news is concerned too. Like we've had to cut a few articles and there's some even just streaming in this morning, right? So we're really trying to get through a bit to keep you guys informed out there. I'm obviously aware that some of our listeners don't travel to the extent that we do. So we're just trying to get bits from around Australia and throw them in as we feel as though they're important. But we're kicking off today with I suppose it's the number one nationally, right? we've had a lot of conjecture about we've had the federal budget. And in response to that, there seems to be a fairly large property market correction. I think that's what most of the pundits are are talking about at the moment. Everyone's pointing to national auction clearance rates falling below fifty percent. And then there's this broader discussion around is that a normal market correction or a beginning of a broader downturn? What are you What are your thoughts, Kasey? Where are we going with this?

Kasey McDonald (03:12)

Yeah, look, I don't think the market's stopped moving. I just think that buyers and sellers now are simply not agreeing on what the value is. And potentially we've got vendors thinking that my property is still priced at this level. And we've got buyers going, well, no, I don't think it is. And there's now more on market or coming to market. And so I think it's definitely being seen as a correction for sure.

Peter Schravemade (03:40)

Yeah. Well I it was i interesting because I came from REISA, REISA Revolution, fantastic conference put on by by Kane Cook down there and Andrea. They did a fantastic job. Jacob Caine was down there as well and he had the opening I guess stage. He shared that with Kane Cook. It was the two canes, Jacob Caine and Kane Cook. So the two canes had the stage and they were talking about a bunch of things in the market, but it was a really. It was it was really interesting. Like he was talking about the budget. REIA, just in in case you're wondering, the Real Estate Institute of Australia have been lobbying the federal government. I know I know they have been. Scott Rollison's been doing a fantastic job behind closed doors there. And they whilst they were aware or there was a bit of a noise around this, I think their position was not that tax reform shouldn't happen, but Jacob said something that we've said on the program where he talked about we need to solve for the supply issue before that occurs. And we've you know, that almost everyone I've spoken to seems to have known that should have been should have been the case. And so w you know, what I think we're seeing at the moment is a bunch of people with their hands in their pockets. And whether that's buyers or sellers, I actually think both sides of the market at the moment are going, bad time to sell, auction clearance rates are down, purchases, you know, I'm hearing all of this the price of properties is is falling. Domain had a had an article yesterday saying that Sydney house prices could fall by as much as one hundred and twenty two thousand. That's like that article's a bit sensationalist. They were talking a percentage and some reporters then extrapolated that out. But you know, whether whether that's had that happens or not, every time we have these articles, it actually affects the market itself. So, you know, w is it is it a case of you know, the markets are actually falling or is it just a Yeah, or the prices are falling, or is it just a case of people with their hands in their pockets at the moment? And I look you know, from my perspective, I'm one of them. I had a property on the market in central Queensland. I'm I'm likely to take that off soon. I can't see it fetching the price that it needs to. You know, not in this market. There aren't a lot of buyers. It's a particularly niche type of property that was out there. And before the budget, you know, everything was bubbling along. We were getting great interest in it. I think I had You know, up to nine bytes, if you want to call them that, or leads generated on this property, and they all evaporated straight after the budget. So, you know, like on the front line, I can actually tell you how that budget has affected the my prospects of selling. Whoever was looking at that is not looking at it now. And ironically, it's a block of land. So, you know, the whole change of the budget was supposed to be about getting people to build on n on on land. Well You know, I can tell you on the front, the front end, all of the developers that we're looking at that have just dissip dissipated. They've they've gone into nothing. So I don't I don't really think that's you know, I think there's a lot of that around the market. People are just going, you know, why don't we wait this out? Why don't we see what happens? Like no one seems to want to jump first, if you know what I mean.

Kasey McDonald (06:46)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think always typically, well, certainly from my experience and having an agency, you'd probably remember too, but you know, sort of that June, early kind of piece of July, the market seems to slow anyway. We're kind of coming into that interfinancial year. People are assessing values of their homes, they're doing their tax returns, they're understanding, you know, what's well learning to understand what their next move is. So yeah, I think I think definitely we have seen. A mental shift in those agents that I am talking to. We are I'm hearing, they're letting me know a lot of investors are ringing and saying, should we sell? What should we do? What's the rental market doing? Do we think we can get more rent? Because now, you know, this is potentially impacting us. So the property managers are now also being faced with these types of questions that they're probably not trained and skilled to also answer.

Peter Schravemade (07:49)

Yeah, I've and I've heard quite a lot of that. Like one of our companies is called Zapio and they're right on the front end of tracking property portfolios for investors and th they're very much saying that there is a lot of investors out there r requiring advice at the moment. And that I can understand that's coming back to the property management. You know, poor property manager is now A trusted financial advisor as well. By the way, if you're handing out financial advice and you're a property manager, perhaps don't do that. But.

Kasey McDonald (08:18)

Yeah, don't do it. Yeah. one on that Sydney and Melbourne article though, Pete, just if we could just quickly digress back, Domain actually mentioned obviously markets like Brisbane and Al Adelaide were going to kind of remain fairly consistent or in fact can st continue to grow. Like what's your opinion on that? I think, you know, like for me, you know, the Brisbane Gold Coast kind of Sunshine Coast, you know, this kind of pocket of Southeast Queensland certainly is a lifestyle. You know, you do a lot of travel in Sydney, Melbourne, et cetera. And probably still sits at somewhat in an affordability piece. But in saying that though, I heard on the news only a few days ago that there's prices in Western Sydney go where houses are going for now eight fifty, nine hundred, and they have not seen that in years. Whereas you can't still probably get that in Brisbane or Sunshine Coast or Gold Coast, to be fair.

Peter Schravemade (08:46)

Yeah. Yeah. No. No, that's right. Well, y you know, we've had both Tim and Jacob as well has said it at REISA saying that he they both think affordability affordability has reached a ceiling, particularly for tenants. You know, if you're an investor pro investor, there's there's not a lot more dollars to soak out of that transaction. But you know, I think Jacob mentioned that Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth are ranked in the top fifteen of least affordable. i the they're right all high up there and you know d travel to the US like here here I was staying in the US in Houston of all places last last year, one hundred meters away from the heart of the CBD, I can buy a four-bedroom townhouse for four hundred and fifty thousand US. Name me a capital city in Brisbane other than Melbourne. Granted, Melbourne a and maybe to an extent Tasmania, but with the r with the rest of ours. You know, if you're looking at that in Brisbane, that's got a three in front of it and six fif eas easy, you know, it's it's easily three million for a do or opera. That kind of thing, and you're not gonna find a four better. It'll be two or or three or a studio. Yeah. So like I don't yeah, it th we are definitely stupidly unaffordable. especially when you look at other similar first world countries. The you can the bang for buckers to what you can pick up there is.

Kasey McDonald (10:25)

Or studio even. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Peter Schravemade (10:42)

Is much deeper. So yeah, I don't yeah, I think what we're seeing is we're going to see a bit of a correction. The prices are going to come down. I think that's that's the only way it can go, to be honest. And I think what we're seeing right now is uncertainty over not necessarily I think the budget has compounded it, but I think it's yeah, the uncertainty caused by the fear of the unknown. Like the budgets come in, we don't know what's going on here. Buyers and sellers don't know what's going on. And so the market's really at a standstill. And they're getting hammered, like the federal government, rightly And they've done a backflip as well, because our s like our second story is on the Labor's property tax changes. So they've have the Greens have stepped in this week. So if you're if you're listening to this podcast and you're unaware of how the Australian the Australian government system works. We have a Westminster system, which means that we have a lower house where most of our rules and regulations are devised in that lower house. Then we have the Senate, which is the upper house, and the checks and balances are supposed to happen in the Senate. So if something is clearly not the will of the people, we would expect the Senate to step in or the members of the Senate to step in and go, look, we're going to block this because we think it's in the best interest of the nation. Well you know, the emerging scandal this week is that the Greens have stepped in. They must be aware it's not the will of the people. And I've never seen a backlash like this to a budget. It it is ve vastly unpopular. And the Greens have stepped in this week and said, look, we're going to ignore that. And we're going to ignore that and we're going to pass this, but only if you tick off on these other things. And one of those is superannuation. So I'm yet again smashed by that. I was about to buy a. About to buy a property, like it feels like there's somebody up there going, screw you, Pete. We're just gonna cross all these things off the list. We had just been getting finance to buy in our self-managed super fund, and the greens have done me a number on that one. So gonna have to look at different options there, which is just ludicrous. How dare they tell me what I can invest in in my in my super fund? Like, how how are they the suppository of all wisdom on this?

Kasey McDonald (12:46)

Mm-hmm. It is. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (13:00)

That they could step in and do that. But that's what they've done. And so now we're in a system where look for as far as I can see, I don't know who's in control anymore at the top. I you know, I said this to you last week. I don't think Jim Chalmers was a fan of these. He's bought them in there. People are calling for his head on a platter at the moment. And then we've got the Greens as a party, and they have exercised what I can only say is a minority. In the Senate to tip Labor over and get the things passed through. So now we're not passed yet. There's still some work to be done, but most you know, most of the tea leaves seem to be pointing to the fact that it is now so.

Kasey McDonald (13:40)

Yeah. I think what's really disappointing to even that they're even talking about that is that if you look at those that have got the self-managed super fund, it's our small business owners, it's you know, mum and dad who are going, well, we maybe can't or want to make sure that we've got additional money to retire on and kind of having that safety blanket. It's the self-employed, you know, it's those that actually aren't typically. wealthy that have actually decided that's a great financial pathway for us. And we can have that, we can get a property, and then we know we've got that to leverage on as well when we retire, because maybe the money that they've had in super isn't sufficient. But you know, with these changes, what we've done is actually ruin things for the average everyday Australian.

Peter Schravemade (14:18)

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. It to the problem's not for me. Like even though there are stumbling blocks, the ones that I really feel for are the first time buyers that have come in and they've used that five percent. Tim Tim spoke about this. Tim Lawless from Cotality spoke about this. He said, I don't agree with the you know, the first time buyer grant of five percent because what it does is people get in on that five percent. And when the market compresses, whatever that five percent is they're no longer holding. So that they'd no longer hold an asset. And so we're sitting here it in this market. If the market goes back, anyone who's bought on that five percent will lose that five percent. And effectively what the you know, they're they'll be holding nothing in their property. So if they try to get out, that first taste of the property market is we made a we made a vast loss. It it may send some of them to the wall. And that's that's what we're looking at, especially. If interest rates continue to go up. Now we saw them on hold last week. No one's talking about that. But they were placed on hold. So but there is anticipated rises before the end of the year. So if you're you know, if you've purchased on five percent, if that's what you've got and you've gotten into the market and your your house was eight hundred and it goes down five percent, which is that you know, that's really the bigger news is that is where the pain is going to be in the market. We're gonna have Lots of people who saw this as their opportunity to get in the Australian dream ho owner house, basic human need of shelter. We've got that sorted tick. Well, ha happy days as a result of, you know, everyone putting their hands in their pockets and the federal budget. I'm sorry, I'm gonna point at that. But if we're if we're talking about that, and the lack of supply and demand because it's there as well. I think yeah, I think we're gonna see a lot of un discomfort for first home owners. So Yeah. yeah, it's it's been interesting, let's put it that way.

Kasey McDonald (16:31)

Absolutely. And I think another thing that remains interesting, which kind of leads to our next story, Pete, Victoria still our the rental reform is still coming in thick and fast for our poor Victorians. They're.

Peter Schravemade (16:36)

Mm. those poor buggers down there, like I just they can't can't catch a break. Yeah. Have you been following s have you been f sorry to interrupt. Have you been following Sarah Sin Cotta's i Insta and social feeds? Like obviously obviously a proud Victorian down there. Well, not so proud. Let's take the proud out at the moment. But she's been she's been definitely fairly vocal in what this means. But what's the latest one? what are they taking away from the Victorians this week, Kasey?

Kasey McDonald (16:51)

No. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. well I heard this week it relates to bot tenants' bonds and that they can now transfer their rental bond from the existing rental they're in and transfer that held by the government to their new rental property. Then if they in fact owe rents, if there's any damage, and then the property manager needs to do any kind of claim on that bond.

Peter Schravemade (17:18)

Yeah. Yeah, how do how does the landlord.

Kasey McDonald (17:39)

That apparently can still happen. The government will then supplement. And then they the government apparently is then going to pay whatever this additional balance is. And then they fight the tenant. Well, let's say they're going to be a fight, because I think there's going to be a fight. That's not how it's actually been worded, but they're going to then recourse the tenant for the repayment of what they might owe over an eight week period as a government repaid back loan.

Peter Schravemade (17:46)

Are you kidding me? Wow. Wow. Look, I mean on the face of it, like 'cause they've got the lease break costs of now being capped as well, like but the stupid part about this is this is the government, this is the Victorian state government legislating over the top of legal agreements. So these are legal agreements and they shouldn't be entered into lightly. Like, do you remember back in the day when we got a mobile phone contract and we had to sit down and sign it?

Kasey McDonald (18:12)

This is going to be interesting. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Peter Schravemade (18:38)

I like I remember them being quite long, quite extensive, until regulation came in and said they have to be easy to read so people understand what they're doing. And you know, now we've we end up with the no contract basis. But when you go to buy a car, you sign a contract. It's a it's a legal agreement. You're signing a contract for the purchase of the car and whatever else. Can you imagine if the state government came in and said. Right, you're gonna sign that and I we understand most of you are gonna be paying that back 'cause not everyone can come in and buy a Merck with cash these days and you know, we now leverage that aga against a a loan. So can you imagine if the government came back in and said, you know, at any stage you can hand that car back in and by the way, you can only charge X amount on the tail end. We'd have car dealerships going bankrupt around the place. We would but you know, people would people would stop. Manufacturers would stop sending their cars over here because that's a unsustainable model. But for whatever reason the Victorian government has has found that might actually be okay because it's just mums and dads that we're screwing this time. I just find I find that reprehensible. I know I notice.

Kasey McDonald (19:32)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's just those that are making the policy. And I understand, right? You know, like we speak to those in the industry, you know, on the daily who are on the ground who were saying that obviously we're consulting and we're offering advice. Clearly, the government down in Victoria are not listening to those that are actually within the industry and who are explaining what happens in this scenario. Like you don't just you not not every situation or not every single vacate. And when a tenant leaves a vacate, it's not that they intend to need to owe money or there's things that are outstanding, but it does happen that they haven't understood that what the normal practices occur on the daily, to understand how in which this type of policy is generally going to impact. But more importantly, these poor Victorian property managers are now, you know, one week talking about this, then the next week talking about that. Then the next week having to call and say, sorry, minimum housing standards are changing again. You got to do this additional compliance. by the way, this. So I feel really sorry for them and just the types of pressures that they would be under at the moment to be supporting their landlord, but more importantly, the types of cust conversations they'd be having with tenants as well.

Peter Schravemade (20:49)

Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. And I actually forgot to mention this off air, but I've I've got an interview with Toby Ballitz coming up from the REIV. So i in in only later this morning. We won't have time to comment on the back end of that, but I'm gonna ask him a bunch of these and see if we can tack that on. because like the REIV in all of this, one point that I think I'd make is I don't think they're being invited into comment before it happens. I think either they're having yeah.

Kasey McDonald (21:10)

Great. It's like an after effect. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (21:31)

Yeah, which is a which is a real problem. They if you remember back pri the previous government in Queensland were doing that exact thing. In fact, they were trying they were so scared of the REIQ that they were trying to rush it through at midnight without telling anyone. And then it it'd be in the notes of Parliament the next day and the REIQ would be reading it going, What the heck? You're like totally blindsided. Now I'm not saying that the same thing's happening in Victoria, but. You know, I really I really feel that the role that Toby and Jacob are are executing down there is super important at the moment. And we'll talk to him about that and what that means and how they're working to try and advocate for not just the property managers' rights, but for the rights of the homeowner down there. I know they're doing a fantastic job. Hmm.

Kasey McDonald (22:05)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. What's next? What's popped up on your social med social media feed?

Peter Schravemade (22:22)

Yeah, look yeah, last night there was a story. well, there's a story, An Antonia Mercorella of the CEO of the REIQ went live to most of the social media formats talking about a change coming up that affects most of REIQ members. And the that change is based on their form system. So, you know, it from around the rest of the countries, this is also pertinent to you guys because For the last couple of years, the way most of the REIs have worked is that they've had their own branded forms platform that is powered by another another set of software. So i in in Queensland's case and a lot of the other states, that has been you know, let's say Queensland's branded forms, which is called Realworks, if I'm not mistaken here in Queensland. Realworks, that's been powered by Forms Live, which is a Dynamic Methods product.

Kasey McDonald (23:12)

Yes, correct. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Peter Schravemade (23:19)

And effectively what's happened is the REIQ have decided to part ways with Dynamic Methods. So they're not going to be the forms provider anymore and there's going to be another one subbed in. So for most Queenslanders, most Queensland property professionals, they're going to remain using Realworks, Realworks will remain as a thing. But what the REIQ have come swinging out about today is or last night, late last night, is that there appears to be people calling.

Kasey McDonald (23:35)

Realworks.

Peter Schravemade (23:47)

Spreading misinformation about this changeover. Now, you know, there's a couple of things that I will say there. I think Dynamic Methods ha as a commercial company probably are going to lose out. You know, this is a contract that they didn't want to lose here. So they it would be in their best interest to to retain business. So you know we're sitting here watching this Antonia's kind of telling us That she's had feedback from her members to say that somebody is calling. We can't, we can't quite know who, but somebody is calling, spreading misinformation about the deal. So there's a couple of things that they clarified in their in their statement this morning. So i this all happens in a few days. 30th of June, I think it is. REIQ are saying Realworks customers will continue to have access to the REIQ contracts, forms, and agreements, as you know, it belongs to the REIQ, so they should. REIQ forms and contracts will remain available through Realworks. So that's another point they're saying. Existing CRM integrations, so Vault Property Tree, Property Me, RePIT, RePIT sales, will be available from launch. So it's business as usual there. And the it whatever the misinformation is, and I haven't been privy to one of these calls, as as have you, so I'm only speculating. But what I believe has been happening is that there's been some confusion. created b on the call about whether those things will be available post thirtieth of June and the REIQ has come out quite dominant this morning saying yes, they absolutely will. And by the way, if you want to listen to Antonia and g catch up on what that is, it's o on all of the REIQ socials. You can go and hear her talk about it. But you know, th th these things happen fairly regularly where a industry body changes its commercial provider, as is their choice, and they do this in the best interests of their membership, you would presume that's what they are that's what they're advocating for. So you know, if you're getting calls and you're you're confused at all, I would direct you back to the REIQ to you know, to to clarify whatever is you're uncertain about. And they have offered that as part of the video as well. So yeah, if you're getting a call from any kind of provider sa s giving you information about your forms.

Kasey McDonald (26:00)

Yeah, definitely.

Peter Schravemade (26:05)

Just go back to the REIQ and clarify exactly what's going on there. Now, in in fairness, we did actually I gave yeah, I gave AJ Chand, the chief growth officer of Dynamic Methods the chance to respond to that this morning and he said it would be inappropriate because there is a matter before the courts. So I and it I wouldn't allude to what that was, so I don't I don't really know, but that's as good as a no comment coming from the Dynamic Methods team.

Kasey McDonald (26:12)

Yes, we.

Peter Schravemade (26:33)

There at the moment. So just so you know, we've given the right of refusal to that other side to comment on there. And we'll follow that story moving forward. Yeah. You saw something on social media this week as well and you sent it through to me.

Kasey McDonald (26:41)

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I did actually. I you know, you know, as you do, scroll through your Instagram feed and cut up cut yeah, those ones. And yeah, just kind of, you know, cut caught. I really more so it was of the caption of that real estate agent agents dislike me. And I was like, this seems like it's gonna be something interesting. And as I'm kind of obviously listening to the real, what actually came out about this, more importantly, I think the key messages is.

Peter Schravemade (26:54)

Death scrawling.

Kasey McDonald (27:16)

One, there's still, of course, throughout our industry, lots of properties being listed with no price. And this particular person or this reel on Instagram talks about, you know, what is it that buyers actually want, right? They want transparency. Why don't you just tell us the price? Why do you put price by negotiation? But more importantly, he shared a hack and it's called the Property Seeker Chrome Extension. And of course you and I started to then have a little play to see if it actually worked, right?

Peter Schravemade (27:48)

Well, it's been to be fair to be fair, it's been my bugbear for a while too. I've now stopped inquiring on properties that don't feature a price. And it like I've I just I just don't inquire anymore. And what really annoys me is when I do call up a sales agent, you know, and I guess I'm in a bit of a different scenario 'cause I can easily do a CMA on it myself and I will. But when I call up an agent they go, What would you offer on this? Without me having seen it.

Kasey McDonald (27:55)

Mm. And it's exactly what he was saying, that buyers just don't. They just don't.

Peter Schravemade (28:17)

Like I don't know if I want to even attend your property because are we talking two million or are we talking one? You know, where does this sit? now I have I have another mate called Jason. And Jason, I have had it out with on this. I have said, don't put a price on it. I won't inquire. It it and my point to him is is that acting in the best interest of your seller? Now he turns around to me and says, I can provide you with 50 reasons as to why I don't put a price on there. And for me, it's been just overall super effective at getting you know, buyers to a higher level of engagement price wise. So, you know, there is an argument both ways, and I've heard the argument from a consumer perspective and from me as a buyer, if something doesn't have a price on it, you know, it and this is shown in retail. This was my response to him. Is if a property if if if you walk into a store and something is unpriced, people are unlikely to take that to the register and purchase it, no matter what price they think it is. And this has even been shown to be the case. Like in in if there's a Mars bar, it doesn't have a price on it. People know kind of where Mars bars sit in pricing. So it's not an unknown, but they will still not take it to the register. So, you know, this is not a this is not a house thing, this is not a car thing. This is a product thing. It's like, don't put a price on it and you're probably not gonna you're gonna miss out on some inquiries. But you know, when I speak to my good mate, he just throws it back at me and he goes, You know what? I'm I'm acting in what I think is the best interests of my vendors, and I have had huge success at getting above the expect expectation of price by not putting it on there. So effectively what this by the way, what this property seeker extension does. Is it gives you the I think it gives you the search parameters that are entered into the REA group or Domain.

Kasey McDonald (30:17)

Correct. And that's exactly what I was just about to say. So obviously as you go to list in the back end of those portals, it actually does you have to position that price guide, right? You've got to go, well, this is kind of the minimum, this is the maximum, this is where we think we're sitting. And it comes upon that agent's opinion due from the CMA that they produce, right? Then they can tick a box to go, but what do we think the price is? And do we want to display that?

Peter Schravemade (30:41)

Hmm. Yep. And where was I yesterday, Kasey? Where was I?

Kasey McDonald (30:45)

South Australia.

Peter Schravemade (30:47)

Yep. South Australia are notorious n there's there's there's it's almost like try and find a house with a price on it down there. I don't know how they operate. I could.

Kasey McDonald (30:55)

Well, every buyer in South Australia, download the property seeker extension from Chrome.

Peter Schravemade (30:59)

Yeah. Well, this is w this is where I tested it. So I don't know if I've told you this, but we looked to move to South Australia. And the reason, I think the largest reason I'm not living there at the moment is I couldn't find a price on a property. It's a damning indictment. Like that's that's not like not just me. The South Australians are probably thinking they're lucky stars that are keep the prices off Peter Shravemade was looking. Yeah, they did they did it on well.

Kasey McDonald (31:11)

Ha ha ha Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think they did that on purpose so that you wouldn't move to Adelaide.

Peter Schravemade (31:27)

Had I had the property seeker extension, it might have been a different ball game. Because like I just in that in that square that's in the city, you know, when you look at Adelaide from a bird's eye view, in that square in the city, there's a lot of apartments in there. None of them are priced. And like I could see them all yesterday. And I was going, I was actually thinking to myself, I would have purchased that back then had I known that's where that was at. And I was like going,. So I see it as both ways. And I'm I'm not gonna give light to the guy that shares it. He believes that all real estate agents hate him. I don't think that's the Yeah. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (32:00)

Yeah, that's what that's what he said. They all hate me. I was like, this is interesting. I need to see what this is actually all about. yeah.

Peter Schravemade (32:06)

Yeah, so well any anyway, that's out there. And I've actually seen since this came up, I've seen a bunch of technologies that are out there. So at the moment, the real estate institute of New South Wales, yeah, this is one that we that dropped off the list this week. But the Office of Fair Trading in New South Wales are coming out saying we're going to smash anyone who underquotes. And I started laughing, going, You just had that famous case. And you hit him with 33,000, but all of a sudden they're gonna be a hundred and twenty thousand. Like he underquoted it all about fifty cases. Yeah, and like he that was what he got at and a lifetime ban. So like you know, I excuse me for being cynical. New South Wales Office of Fair Trading, when you say you're coming after real estate agents, I don't think they're quivering their boots. But one of the pieces of technology that's come out of that is there's a a cool piece of technology that.

Kasey McDonald (32:43)

For years. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (33:04)

Doing exactly the same as this. It's it's getting the search parameters to show it the REI and SW, I think, are looking at using it to prove underquoting or otherwise, or at least sharpen up on agent skills. So watch this space. I think there's more of that coming. And here's the other thing that I point out is like they're obviously getting that data from somewhere in the somewhere in the feed that is the portal feeds. How long before the portals hide what that is? And that becomes a lot harder. Like, okay, so we're seeing that now. This seems like it could be a a quite a simple tech fix from the major portals to go, that information is hidden. And I don't I you know I don't know how they're getting it. So I don't know if it's as simple as that. But to me, it seems fairly simple. It must be a piece of code in there that they've been able to highlight and go, this is where we're gonna we're gonna hone in on that.

Kasey McDonald (33:37)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I just thought it was very, very interesting, you know, that I think he, you know, he definitely does talk around about what buyers are looking for. And I think that's the key here. It's, you know, if we, you know, to your friend's point, he he's definitely of the opinion that he's achieved a great results and he's definitely worked in the best interests of his vendors. And there be maybe others that have experienced some, you know, things completely different on that side. And I appreciate everyone. Is going to kind of work and have their own opinion and view on this, but I'm with you. I wanna and I actually do and it's great actually, Avi and I do talk about this in the in the upcoming interview as well. So, and he kind of puts his his piece of feedback onto it. But you know, for me, I'm the same. I at least want to know where am I sitting because I want to kind of know am I going to really be able to afford that? And if or am I not? Like is it even worth me even going to look at it? Right. Like.

Peter Schravemade (34:31)

Yeah. Yep. Hm. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (34:56)

Do I waste my time and get out of bed on a sad day and go to ten open homes, know that all ten are absolutely generally priced out of my my price point? Or do I go to those ten knowing I'm sitting there and I've got some chance of being able to at least get one of those?

Peter Schravemade (35:12)

Yeah, well I actually, because as you know, we purchased about a year ago, but during that process, I saw a lot of this. I saw one, and I won't name the location, but it was a really prominent industry person in that location had listed this property. No price on it. Now, because I have access to d you know, a a data supplier, I could see that there were five houses in a row, all very similar to this one, that had all sold in the last six months at a certain price. Now Quite often it's not as cut and dried as that, but this one seemed to be priced smack bang in that. And I called this person, didn't have a price on it. One of the reasons I called is because my desktop CMA, having not visited the property, put it at a certain price. And I got the whole, what price would you put on this? And I said, that's quite easy to answer. the five houses next to you have sold in the last six months, all between this range. That's the price range I would put on it. And she said, Well, you know, it's not even it's not even close to that.

Kasey McDonald (35:59)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, so then what price have you put on it, agent, then? What have you recommended? Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (36:10)

And I'm I'm yeah, but you have you have you priced it? Yeah, like could you tell me what 'cause I haven't seen the property and it's a considerable drive away from where I am. You know, and here it lay the problem. Like I'm looking for properties not just in the area that I live, I'm looking for them in far-flung places, South Australia, Tasmania, I was looking there as well. And not having a price on the property, like what am I supposed to do? Jump on a plane and go and have a look at every single one when So yeah, I could go on about this forever, pricing on properties, but you know, I've heard the other side of the argument and there are points, there are parts of that I agree with. One thing I would say is I'm not for pricing everything. There are some properties that I believe you are not acting in the best interests of your vendor by putting a price on it because the option to move upwards is is so i you know, it's it's it's there. And I would actually point it as auctions. You know, when I get to that stage, I would point at auctions as being maybe a facility that's better open to housing that because you get a guide and but the market decides on the day. So, you know, w it we could go on about this forever. can I talk I know we've got the interview coming up with Avi car, can I just talk about the two conferences that I have just come back from.

Kasey McDonald (37:16)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I had that next on my list of would love to hear what your takeaways were from the event. What was the spe what were the speakers t chatting about? What kind of came out of the event?

Peter Schravemade (37:36)

Well, let's go first firstly to PIPA. do you know what PIPA is? You can say no. Yeah, PIPA is the property investment professionals of Australia. That's what it stands for. And I've had I've spoken at this conference before. I obviously we the buyers agents and we have buyers advocacy groups as well. We've got Rebar and a bunch of others. The property investment professionals of Australia, these are guys that sell largely investment property. It's it's a it's a such a ditch different vibe.

Kasey McDonald (37:38)

Mm-hmm. No, actually, I haven't I haven't heard of that event. Mm-hmm.

Peter Schravemade (38:05)

To normal agents. I don't, I don't or normal, let's remove the word normal, but sales agents. I don't know why, but it's a different vibe. These people, you know, obviously a different skill set that's involved in there. a lot of them tend to be highly analytical. But that was a it was really good to a reattend one, I think two years since my first one, and having seen them growing and the topics that they were raising. really, really good. Now I was only there for a short amount of pi out of time before I bec before I had to go. But yeah they're doing a wonderful job there. Mike Mortlock, who is with Depreciation Survey Comp company and also has MCQ, I think it's called and then they he still he has his podcast, a fantastic podcast by the way. Mike Mortlock's podcast is excellent in that area. And Kate Bacos, who is I think she's currently in the top job there, but. I might have that wrong. I caught up with them and then there there's the Joanna Boyd was there who is the i involved in the chapter at the REIQ. So, you know, great conference. everything property investment was being discussed there. My my job was largely to talk about tech and where that's coming in. And were looking at a lot of the data plays. We covered data l last week. an area of the industry quite familiar to you. So I'm not gonna lecture you on that. But Yeah, that there's some really interesting data plays coming into that property investment space. And yeah, that was a lot of a lot of that they're asking about the technology that's entering in. We've got a lot of portfolio management in that space. I mentioned Zapio earlier in this conversation. That's they weren't there, but that's one of the emerging techs. And then the bigger conference that I went to was the Real Estate Institute of South Australia Revolution. And that's that was Kane Cook and Andrea Heading. That was it was excellent. I really like their conferences down there. They've got a different feel. And that's not to that's not I'm not having an attack at the other REIs. There is something really homely about the feel that happens there. It is a small conference, but and maybe that's it. Maybe you can get that kind of feel down there. But I almost got to know everyone at that conference before the end of the day. Especially those who hung around at the end. But a couple of takeaways from there. They're talking about A AI replacing workflows, but not people. there they had Professor Toby Walsh there. And Toby's written a few books on emerging generative AI. And he one of the things he said stuck with me, he produced a survey that said that Australia has incredibly low trust in artificial intelligence when compared with other first world emerging nations. Now, that's not unusual to me. We've been in the PropTech industry for quite some time. You even did some travel with us as box brandy, and you know, I remember back in the day, we felt that the American public were more open to new forms of technology than the Australians were by a long way. The Australians would approach something with skepticism before trust. Whereas the Americans would kind of jump in, throw money at it, see if it worked, and then go, that worked from here or it didn't.

Kasey McDonald (41:09)

Yeah, definitely.

Peter Schravemade (41:20)

And it was it's just a different approach. I you know, I don't necessarily think one's better better than the other. But where we currently sit at the moment with new forms emerging all the time, I think the skepticism in Australia has actually intensified, if I wanted to call it that. So we had that. Jake spoke a lot about new energy efficiency standards. NatHERS is what it's called, the National Housing Energy Rating System and A T H E R S. If you're not across that, it's it it's good Bedtime reading. It's good. It'll put you asleep. No, it's actually, it's it's actually good to get your head around it because it's coming. It's a mandatory energy ratings that they're coming. And they're attached to that will be more minimum rental standards. Wait for that, landlords. We also we also discussed AML. Kane Cook came up with for me, one of the quotes that I haven't heard through all the AML hype, AML hype.

Kasey McDonald (42:04)

Sentence yeah.

Peter Schravemade (42:19)

He said, I am viewing AML as an opportunity to profess professionalize the industry. And I thought, wow, that's a r that's a really refreshing approach. I've heard it all the scaremongering, but really, really well put. So well done. Well done to those guys. Great conference. Thanks for having me. though probably never invited back again, but thank you for thank you for having me. What do they say? Go down south is what they said. That's that's that's their slogan down there. But yeah, beautiful, beautiful country, beautiful land down there in South Australia, even if they can't price the property yet.

Kasey McDonald (42:58)

Yes. And obviously we do have the REIQ LIFT conference coming up in the next few weeks. So really excited. I will be there. You will be there. I think we probably may even look to have a chat live to a few of the speakers and potentially, you know, guests to be a part of our podcast. So any of those who are listening today who are attending the REIQ event, make sure.

Peter Schravemade (43:03)

We do, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (43:24)

You come and see Pete and I at the event if you would like to have a a a speaking spot on our podcast. while while we're there. But also one exciting event that's kind of attached to Lyft, but also a part of what you do, Pete, within the industry as a part of Reach Australia New Zealand is the pitch battle. So talk to us about that, PropTech Innovation. And what do what do those within PropTech need to do to be a part of that pitch battle?

Peter Schravemade (43:54)

Yeah, well the we've c we've closed the applications down so they can't yeah. Too you're too slow. Too slow. Yeah. Well we're only we're only a couple of weeks. We're a couple of weeks we're a couple of weeks out. I shut it I shut it a week and a bit ago. We're about actually about to announce the finalists of that. So, you know, but we put up.

Kasey McDonald (43:58)

Really? I was gonna jump on and do it. Cause hello. Really? I that's okay. I'm we're friendlies. We're friendlies. I can can't I just can't I get a gig or not? okay.

Peter Schravemade (44:21)

A cash price. We put up ten $10,000 to find emerging forms of property technology and we do that every year. And whilst we're attached to technology and they're welcome to apply, this is open to the industry. It really importantly, it's independent. It there are no REACH judges. It's it's no affiliation between REACH. In fact, this year one of the judges is Ines Hegedes Garcia, all the way from Miami, who's heavily involved in the tech industry over in the USA. So we're excited to have her. We've got some. Peter from Peter Burke from the venture capital community is is coming over and doing it. Ash Cullum, well Cullum Ashton. I call him Ash. Ash is coming over. He's with PropTech Hub WA. So he's he's bringing that side in. Obviously, we've got the indomitable Antonia Mercorella as a judge back again this year. So, you know, super excited for that. But really what we tr what we do is as part of that is we. Invite a lot of venture capital players to the scene. We invite a lot a lot of the PropTech community. In fact, the night is becoming more about community than the pitch battle itself. But one of the interesting things that we gauged last year is that every single one of the people who did pitch walked away with a major deal at the end of it. So whilst we have the winner with the cash prize and then we have the People's Choice Award as two separate things and both of those are, you know, I they have. They have a a defined play. What if you've gotten that, you've gotten the win of the judges or you've got the win of the people. Both of those are excellent. So that's there. But there are other people listening going, Could I do the you know, will this factor into part of my business? So yeah, I love it. I really like the vibe that's there. And then on the back end of that, we do this other thing because like you watch people get up, it's actually c quite a high pressure scenario. This is not just a a shark tank night where you get to pitch and you can make mistakes, but they're generally they're forgiving. This is actually pressure. You have to deliver it in under four minutes. That's not easy. People think that's easy. That is not easy. I can tell you, with somebody who has pitched thousands of times, that is not easy. So firstly, they have to do it in under four minutes. They have to do it succinctly they're given the aid of a slideshow that's there. No, no video aids generally, like that's not part of it. So it's really have you gotten your point across? And a lot a lot of this can be technical. But the interestingly, the two winners from last year were both people who had quite a personal backstory to it. And the winner came out of nowhere. not a not a reach program. A lady by the name of Suzanne Campbell from a company called Venue. I had never met the lady before that night. Just such a really concise emotional delivery of Here was a problem we solved for. This is why we're solving it. And the judges agreed. I think I think both the winner of that and the person who won the People's Choice Awards was Scale Up. He had a a message where his sister had been unable to purchase a property, so Scale Up now exists to assist first home buyers getting into property. So he had this personal backstory. Here was the problem I solved, here is how we're solving for that. And that yeah, that was Nick Melrose delivered it excellently as well. So more than just a bit of fun, and obviously we have fun as part of it, it it's a chance for emerging technology to get that front that face in front of people who might actually move them forward. So, you know, whilst Reach puts puts this on, we stump up the cash prize, we fund the thing. It it really is a celebration of the in the technology in the industry coming together. And as part of that, I must mention That right now we're working the surveys have closed for PropTech Collab. We had a PropTech survey out and we're looking to do a a State of the PropTech Nation at the start of that, which talks about what we've found in the findings of that survey. And that's quite to me, that's quite interesting. We won't weigh the evening down with that, but that will be delivered at the start of it.

Kasey McDonald (48:14)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so Pete, do you encourage agents, property managers? Like are you encouraging, you know, those that are kind of interested to to learn who's emerging, if you want to know more about what tech is coming up and out to to come along?

Peter Schravemade (48:38)

Yeah, and Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Anyone in the industry, because like don't don't forget it's not all just about the companies that are on stage. It's about the crowd that's gathered there to listen to that. And quite a lot of those affect how the industry will move forward. a lot of the real estate institutes will be there. They want to see what's coming out of the ground. So yeah, like I would I would highly recommend going there. If you're interested, it's topoftheprops.com.au. You can find tickets there or any information or just email us here at hello at beforetheweekend.com and I'll respond to you when I can. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (49:17)

Yeah, and can you give us any teasers as to what's come out in that survey? Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (49:22)

In the survey. No, no, not just yet. No. So we only closed it last week and we've looked at various incarnations. But yeah, that will come up. That will come up in due course, Kasey. But thank you for trying. Thank you for trying. No, no, not not yet. Not yet. So you did an interview this week.

Kasey McDonald (49:25)

Okay. Okay. Ha ha. You know, I thought I'd kinda get you off guard there and I thought you might of given us a few little like no.

Peter Schravemade (49:50)

I think one of the more interesting people in the industry that the I wouldn't say emerging. Harvey's been Avi Kahn from Ray White, he's been in the industry quite some time. I feel like he has a new lease on life and I don't want to I don't want to preempt the interview, so we'll go and have a listen to him. But yeah, having heard this pre recorded interview, it's it's it's a cracker and I really hope you enjoy it. But I'll throw over to Kasey and Ar Avi now.

Kasey McDonald (50:21)

Guys welcome to before the weekend podcast I'm Kasey McDonald and today I have with me Avi Kahn. Thanks for joining us Avi yeah fabulous Friday in Brisbane sun's shining we're at an event we couldn't we could not do anything better right.

Avi Kahn (50:29)

Yeah. Yeah. before the weekend as well, so it fits it, you know.

Kasey McDonald (50:41)

Exactly. Well, look, I've got lots of questions here on my notepad for you. But first of all, I kind of want to start with let's learn about you. Let's learn about the Avi Kahn and you have been doing some great things within our space in terms of you know growth, your team, the businesses. So I'd love for you to share who are you so we can understand who Avi is. Yeah.

Avi Kahn (51:06)

Yes, so we run about five Ray White offices in Brisbane South, from Brisbane South to the west, going all the way from Holland Park, Daisy Hill, Marsden and Brookwater. We have about 160, 170 staff members. We sell nearly eight, nine hundred properties a year, and we manage now across the group, there's about 3,600 properties from Holland Park all the way to Brookwater. So yeah, it's it's all fun and games. And we've got a few other companies, we call it an ecosystem, which we have a law firm which is based out of Sydney, we have a Philippines branch which is all our VAs as well. And we have a big media company in Brisbane now, which is now expanding to Sydney and Melbourne. So yeah, there's a lot of different things happening.

Kasey McDonald (51:48)

Well, that kind of leads me to my next question. Multiple offices and obviously multi-businesses that all work seamlessly together. So culture, talk me through that. It's your what role do you play as a leader across all those businesses?

Avi Kahn (52:03)

Think is gradually changed my role with when it comes to culture. At the start when you're a small business it's you drive it, and then you get something's wrong, you get something's right. But as you get bigger you find that the team actually drives your culture. And it's hard when you got like different sites and different offices because each team will work at a different place. You've got some younger people there, some experienced hands there. So each office kinda has his own vibe and all c own culture. Sometimes things go wrong. I think that the beautiful thing about our culture is that people the team buys someone before even get there. And that makes me feel really good. It's not that sometimes I feel like I didn't know about these things, but they're so protective. You know, even if like they're one of our best performers, the agents will always, you know, say, Hey, we want to work in this environment, we want to do things ethically, morally, doing things in the right way. So they're so protective of the culture. So yeah, it's always work in progress, but it's built by the team. I'm just they're facilitating it. And it's that's the beautiful thing now is like They feel like it's theirs rather than the officers. So.

Kasey McDonald (53:05)

Right. I really like yeah, I really like that. Cause I think, you know, we all learn as individuals if if we sort of have a bit of a buy-in and we're a part of that journey, we tend to be responsible and own it and be accountable, right? So I really love hearing that the team are also excited about that.

Avi Kahn (53:21)

Yeah, it's it's extremely amazing because that's sometimes they're like, Hey, I really like this person in the industry, I really like this property manager, I've been dealing with her in my sales capacity. yeah, why don't we hire her or why don't we hire him? So that sort of stuff is it's it makes me feel good that they are really protective and they want to grow the company with good people.

Kasey McDonald (53:39)

Yeah, great. And so what's led you to expand from one office to five offices?

Avi Kahn (53:46)

I think a part of it like when you come in as a new leader, all you want to do is grow, right? You want another office, you wanna be in this suburb, you wanna be in that suburb. But it's kinda like our growth has been with the growth of our people. So they have led the growth, they said, Hey Avi, I wanna open an office here, I wanna do something in this area or this suburb. And then we've had the opposite effect of where for example, three of our four acquisitions have been driven by the principals of the other business. Saying, Hey, we want to join your business or I want to sell, I want retire, and I want you guys to look after my people or my clients. So it's kind of been a little bit organic. I would love to say it's all been strategic. It hasn't. It's just things that have just fallen in place for us and it's just kind of organically driven us to different areas. Now we look at it in a way that like we just don't want to open offices for the sake of it. We don't want to buy rent rolls for the sake of it. It has to be something with the growth of our people. So it's kind of changed as we've gone on. But now nowadays it's you know, it's more opportunities presenting themselves to us rather than us going, We need to be there.

Kasey McDonald (54:51)

Great. And in terms of, I guess, that leadership approach, like how do you think that's then evolved in terms of how you're looking at your people? you know, do you're you're becoming an attraction business, obviously, from what I'm hearing as well in the marketplace. But, you know, those sales agents and/or property managers, you know, they're coming to you saying, let's go to those areas. And so in terms of how you approach that, you know, you're doing those assessments to understand Is that where we need to be? Is that also a business we want to work through? So, what would be your guidance for others that might be going through this or thinking, how do I expand? Or, you know, is that the right area for me? What are some of the things you could do?

Avi Kahn (55:33)

Yeah, I think I think the general premise is more is not always better. Yeah. You gotta figure out like if you're opening an office, can you support it from the existing office? Can you create efficiencies? Can you provide growth? Are you gonna be there? What does your time look like? who's your competitors in the area? You know, what do you take on it? What's the size of the market? A lot of people don't even look at the size of the market, they just say, this name sounds good, we're gonna go there. What's the market, not just that suburb, but what's the four or five surrounding markets? are you gonna have transaction volume? There, you're gonna have good GCI. Do you have the right people to drive that? Don't open a business when you don't have market share. Work on market share first. You can always gain market share in from where you are. a lot of people opening things saying, we'll get market share just because you've got a site there. It does not work like that. That's probably like 15-20 years ago. It's like people just drop it in local office. Yeah, you have to create that presence. How much money are you gonna spend on marketing? who you're gonna recruit, who you're gonna move from your existing office, how does it impact your existing office as well because you don't want to sc ruin what you actually have at the moment. So there's a lot of things, different things you've got to think about before you can go, let's do it. So think about it be strategic about it.

Kasey McDonald (56:44)

Yeah, but yeah, absolutely. Really, really big point. In terms of I guess the high performing teams these days and or more more importantly, a high performing environment, because I really love the fact that you've indicated your your team really helped forge this. So what's the key there? what's your definition of that in today's marketplace?

Avi Kahn (57:06)

Think what so going back to it, it's there's a few things as a leader that you cannot teach your people. So high performing environment is a high training culture and high take up of training, of tech and open to change. But there's one thing with a high performing environment that you look for as a leader is motivation to do well. So look for that in your team if you 'cause it's something it's very hard to teach. I mean you can take them on to all the speeches, all the conferences and stuff, but it's very hard to get motivated people that want to do well. So a high performing environment you can't create that unless you get h that skill that people want to do well so that's first thing second thing is that are they open to change open to training so there's you see a lot in the industry like I don't need to go to that AI or you that Like are your people open to the idea that it's constant training? You know, the best industries, the best operators are always training. So we look at that when we hire people, it's like are they open to change, are they willing to train? do I need to motivate them every day? So th there's certain things that my team do really well. I don't have to go there and say, Hey, let's do well today, you know. They're already pumped ready to go because they're doing something for their for their lives and their families. And secondly, I know that when we provide training opportunities they will turn up. So there's a lot of teams, a lot of agencies that don't really train. So that's what we built there is like willing to learn, willing to listen and they do it they have this inability to drive themselves.

Kasey McDonald (58:29)

Yeah, and that's a really great segue because I also know that you're the founder, one of the founders of the original one conference. And obviously then you've taken it in leaps and bounds across the last few years and I've certainly been a part of that and I've been to your event. And it's really, really great. But what ultimately was your vision behind that?

Avi Kahn (58:51)

Firstly, you're probably one of the only persons that's spoken twice, right? There's only a select.

Kasey McDonald (58:56)

Thank you. I feel very.

Avi Kahn (58:58)

Yeah, no, thank you now. We feel the same that you chose to speak at our conference. But I think initially we said that it's everything was so combative in the industry, like the brands were fighting, the agents were fighting. Like, what can we do to change narrative? Even that little one percent. We know that we can't change everything, right? But we wanted to make some sort of impact. Three different brands, three different principals at the start, get together, throw a conference and it was in January where everyone's called Kickstarts. So we don't want to call Because we fill we felt the concept of kickstart was like something's dying and you get a kickstart, you know, like your motorbike, you gotta kickstart it, you know.

Kasey McDonald (59:36)

Yeah, your car's died, so let's give it a go. Let's do it. Let's throw some jumper leads out.

Avi Kahn (59:41)

Exactly. So that notion of Kickstart didn't work for us. I mean, all due respect, a lot of people do Kickstart events. That's their thing. But we're like, it's almost like giving extra momentum in January. So you win January, win the rest of the year. So in that concept, the conference had to be in December, but we couldn't do December because everyone's like sort of like so we're like, what can we do in January? It's sort of like brings different brands together, brings the best performers across Australia together. And it's sort of like an area idea. To like collaborate network. So I think the first one we had about 300 people, it was just mainly our teams and probably 20, 30 extra seats. And the second one went to 500, then it went to 700. Then last year we had to a thousand thirty. next year we're hoping for like thirteen hundred, four. We want to make it bigger every day. every time we do it. But we think at the format of learning over one day, make it very practical. It's what we want to do. There's so many other conferences out there that do really well in what they do. But our value proposition was like one day key learnings you got great practical speakers across the board and in the middle we break it up with one motivational speaker one business speaker done well something different like we had the founder of Airtasker there this year so yeah that was our concept of how can we tone the narrative of you know everyone's just so competitive like you don't have to be like that to do well the market's so big and obviously there's always gonna be that industry but like coming together and one of the best things I was talking to one of the speakers that we're gonna announce next month I said Is that the best thing for the speakers and sponsors is like the networking in at night. We feel like everyone learns so much of each other and there's so much about different brands that we don't know. It was really good to like, you know, do it over breaking bread. So and you know, we always find that more and more people want to come. So it's slowly getting that momentum now. But then again, you know, it might not be for everyone, but it's a great way to sort of think about what we're gonna do for the rest of the year.

Kasey McDonald (1:01:38)

Yeah, and I think, you know, look, we do see it on social right to your point about it is competitive and it is agencies bagging agents out and like, you know, people stealing signboards and you know, all these things that just comes out like crazy within our industry and it's just not necessary, right? And we can all sit back and have a bit of a giggle, but the reality is is that every day it's actually happening. And so what I really love is that's what you've that's what the vision was. It was about we are one industry and I like There you go. There's the one conference. We're one industry. Let's come together. Let's all learn. Yeah. Let's learn from practitioners that are doing great things. Let's learn from motivational speakers to keep ourselves energized. So yeah, I think, you know, that's a really great way to kind of position it in marketing.

Avi Kahn (1:02:26)

Think so I think there's lot of negativity up there and people complain about signs being and there's there's always two sides to the story right with everything sometimes the people shouting from the rooftops are not the ones that are doing the right things. So that's what we're trying to do is like hey how can we tone that rhetoric down why don't you just call the other principle someone stealing signboards? Yeah. You know like that like that's what we're trying to say. Like why does it have to be across the media and everyone gets a bad name or the industry gets a bad name. So that's what we're trying to say is like let's just talk to each other as much as we can.

Kasey McDonald (1:02:55)

Yeah, great. And I think, look, I'm gonna ask you the hard question around this, to that point, right? Is that right now, or and it's probably been for a long time, the stigma of who we are as real estate agents, right? Is that we're not great people, we don't operate fairly, the consumers don't trust us, right? Those people that we're dealing with every single day. And so what's your what is your honest view on what is going on in our industry right now?

Avi Kahn (1:03:25)

Yeah, it's it's very concerning. You know, like were already you know, the worst trusted. Like even prostitutes are trusted better than us, apparently, and according to the surveys. They've kinda got out of control. You know, like there's and it's across the groups, right? Across the brands. It's not one or two people. And it's always like one or two people become the poster child. And then rightly or wrongly, you know, they have done the wrong things and they'll deserve to be pointed out and saying these people are doing the wrong things by us, but you know everyone has that. You know, we've had that, we let people go. Yeah. We don't want to tolerate that stuff, you know, and it's it's up to us as leaders. It's it's hard conversations for leaders, I think that, you because you're sitting there like you're firing a $300,000 performer or $2 million performer, like what's it gonna do to your bottom line? But I think there's enough people out there that we can lean on to get advice from. When I did that, I know there's certain industry principals that help me on that journey. So it's it's about us as leaders becoming braver. And I think the shift is happening. You know, leaders are becoming braver and saying, Look, I can't tolerate that, it's not good for me, it's not good for our people that we have, we're not gonna attract people, we're not gonna attract clients. So it's a it's a huge thing and I think that a lot of people have shown so many positive movements towards it, you know. But these people are now becoming Yeah. Like this is the concerning thing. And then leaders are hiring them to train their teams. Now like they're ignoring what's actually happened. So that's disappointing, but you know, it it can't be fixed for one or two people. I mean every every brand or every state it has to be a wholesale. So it's it's good to see. And it's gonna take a while for us to shift that with the with the perception of the public.

Kasey McDonald (1:04:56)

Collection of.

Avi Kahn (1:05:11)

The perception is correct. especially when they're like posting all these things, they're taking shots at industry advocates and taking shots at each other. It's like just lay off social media. Yeah. You know, like nothing good's gonna come in there.

Kasey McDonald (1:05:26)

No, and I think as well, right, like the consumers don't need to see that we have a fancy watch or we drive this million dollar car. Like yeah, to they don't want that right because at the end of the day, they wanna know that they're gonna be able to do business with a human being that's gonna understand what their needs and wants are and be able to actually support them in making that decision, right?

Avi Kahn (1:05:50)

I totally agree. It's it's like what how are you gonna guide the consumer? Yeah. Yes, you know, like you have to show that you're successful, I get that. people want to go with successful agents. But there's a way of showing it, there's a way of doing it, you know. driving around on the $700,000 car when you sell an $800,000 home, it's not gonna do anything for anyone. So yeah, look, everyone has to come into this together. Yeah. But there's always gonna be the undercut the ten percent or the five percent that actually herald his people and put them into training with their teams and showcase them and you know, so who knows? Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (1:06:25)

Yeah. do you think that the problem has always been there? It's just now been more exposed because leaders are starting to see that or the industry bodies are starting to see it?

Avi Kahn (1:06:38)

Look, I think the problems have always been there. It's probably getting it's probably got worse with you know, like people celebrating these people. You know, like the quest to be the number one, the quest to be the highest GCI all that stuff, although, you know, we have gamified things in our groups and our networks and our offices, that doesn't mean that you take it to that next level and just go crazy with it, right? And with social media it actually you can propagate that more and more and more. So I don't what the solution is but I think I've seen in the probably the last three months that it's it's getting turned down a bit so it's good. You know people suddenly realize that's not the way they do business. But yeah it's it's really odd isn't it? Yeah you don't see doctors going and they're I save five lives today.

Kasey McDonald (1:07:24)

It definitely is. Well, but we're definitely an ego-driven industry, let's be real, right? Like about that. We certainly are. So a couple of quick fire questions to you. You tell me, what has been your biggest mistake learning that you can share?

Avi Kahn (1:07:44)

I think letting go of people earlier, you know, letting go of bad performance earlier, not just bad on not selling but bad on culture. I think the lesson I learned was from my actual teammates, my team that, you know, you need to move quick on these things. It's always as leaders like you, you wanna give people a go. You always think you know, you always see the best because you see them more as your kids or your you know, your your private stuff.

Kasey McDonald (1:08:09)

Well that's part of your family. You see them every day, right?

Avi Kahn (1:08:12)

So sometimes you have to get away from the emotion side of things and look at more logically and I've decided that I'm gonna try to look at more logically. And that's why I'm saying it's hard for all leaders to be in that space because you don't see everything because you're clouded by this emotion that but you know, that person was really good or or we've trained them or you know, but that's probably really my biggest lesson is let go people earlier.

Kasey McDonald (1:08:36)

Right. And your biggest win or success?

Avi Kahn (1:08:39)

I think it's as cliche as as it is, but like seeing how people do well, becoming leaders in our business, you know, being shareholders in that business or going to open their own businesses, like that's been really cool for me to see 'cause you like you always have this little part in someone else's journey and how can you like guide them to do more and be better or sometimes it could be doing more is like having six weeks off instead of having one week off. Like so the biggest win has been seeing the rise of my people. It's been really cool to see. And you know, it buys buys them more time in their lives or it gets them better things in their lives or sets up their lives. So that's been really cool. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (1:09:19)

Great one, awesome. Where do you see our industry going in the next three to five years?

Avi Kahn (1:09:25)

It's gonna be crazy because there's so much change coming, you know. Like even July first we got CPD we've got AML All these things are kicking in, the forms platforms are changing, you know, we're seeing commission levels diving down, We're seeing you know investors disappear. We're seeing homeowners in a panic. The first time we've seen negative equity in homes. Yeah. Like we haven't seen that in yonks. So there's lots of change coming. The tech revolution is definitely here. So you know how many PropTechs we have is gonna triple, drible. So there's lots of change, but one thing that isn't gonna change is the fundamentals of being face-to-face, face-to-face. the client relationship is becoming more crucial. Like the other day, one of my agents was saying that she actually picked her buyer up, put her in a car, went and showed a property. I'm like, wow it used to be, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's it's sad because the federal government has caused a lot of own goals as well. But it's okay because you know, like people still need roofs over their heads. Our industry will always survive and we just have to go back to the way we used to do real estate, which is get in front of people. So who knows what three to five years holds but lots of changes even with portals right free photos free floor plans, free Matterport tours you know free iGUIDE tours like everyone's drastically changing yeah so the only thing constant is that change.

Kasey McDonald (1:10:52)

Have you seen a swift change in our consumer behaviour in the last 30 days or since the budget's been released?

Avi Kahn (1:11:00)

Yeah, amazing, amazing change, good and bad. Like one of the things that we're seeing is the people that are panicking the most is actually tenants. Right. Which is which is Kasey, which is a sad thing, right? Because what the government has done is they've said that we want to close the gap. Yeah. You know, create more generational wealth for the younger people, but what they don't realise people need to save in order to get a deposit. Mm-hmm. And then in order to get a loan. Now if you're saying to a tenant like, Okay, you're or sixty, seven dollars up every week, right? It's taking away the ability to save their disposable income is sort of disappearing. Which I think is basic economics that you and I understand and the industry understands, but I don't think the government does. So there's a lot of panic in tenants whether they can ever buy a house now. What are they gonna do? How are they gonna afford rent because the rents are going up. So we're seeing a lot of panic on the inside. We're seeing investors trying to figure out what their house is currently worth in the market now. We're seeing investors saying hey can I increase the rent back this And this. So what does the market say? They're gonna go with wherever the market is for rents, right? So we're seeing that side of the equation. We're seeing a lot of homeowners second guessing where they need to sell, upgrade, downgrade, you know, they're all like sort of waiting. So there's been a lot of change, buyer enquiries down by about 30%, I would say, across the board. Yeah. You're going from 10 inspections down to two or three inspections. agents are having to work harder to sell a house, which is not a bad thing, but you can't sell anything for 16, 17. days like used to average now it's forty forty five days. Right. So we're seeing drastic changes across the board on different sets of, you know, whether it's tenants, investors, homeowners, buyers. So yeah, it's drastically changed that. You know like auctioneers don't have as many options at the moment. photographers are panicking as well because what happens in, you know, are we going to get enough business? Brokers are seeing their businesses go down. You know, so there's a lot of changes that the float effects of the budget changes that I don't think the government's factored in. It's been drastic. It's been drastic. So and it's just like COVID, right? It was drastic everything shut down too recently and then boom. So we could go the other way like, you know. So the only thing constant is the change, I say. So it's it's interesting time.

Kasey McDonald (1:13:15)

Yeah. What's the one piece of tech in your business you're loving right now?

Avi Kahn (1:13:21)

We've actually created new tech in our business. We're looking at like we're thinking about this way. Are all the tech's focused on actually finding business? Like whether it's like propensity of calls or texts. But there's nothing that actually takes a listing from A to Z in a proper manner. So you everyone's relying on Mondays or Trello's, but there's nothing out there that actually helps people transact. So that's the tech where we have is like we're actually helping people transact. And all the steps are covered and nothing's missed. Client communications are there, vendors can actually see what you're doing in real time. So that's what we're enjoying. And that's new to us. But yeah, I think there's a lot of tech out there, but like what actually enables you to create relationships and what disables you from creating relationships. 'cause that's what principals and agents need to realise. So go with the enabler rather than the disabler. Yeah. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (1:14:10)

And my last question for you, if you are a key influencer in this industry, but if you could make the one influential decision for our industry, what would that major change be and why?

Avi Kahn (1:14:23)

Easy on this one because I've actually read an article on this. I would take away, I would kill price guides across Australia. Okay. So one of the things that you know people sit down and do price guides and things is everyone's wrong. It's like you leave a glass of milk outside, you walk away after two hours, it's expired. Right? That's just like predicting price, comparative market analysis. You sell something down the road, two days later, someone sold something for more. That's what the street's worth. So why do we have price guides? Because it's a expired. And if you take away price guides in New South Wales or Victoria, you solve all these underquoting issues. No one knows what the price of the house will be. The only person that's right on the price is the eventual buyer. The agent is dead wrong. The owners are dead wrong. We know that. Yeah. Right. So the market dictates the price. So if I could change anything in in Australia, I would bend the price guides and that would solve underquoting overnight. The best thing to do is don't quote at all. No one knows. Yeah, like it's crazy.

Kasey McDonald (1:15:25)

Take it to market, get your buyers through the door and get and get the feedback.

Avi Kahn (1:15:28)

Back. Yeah and make a traditional real estate. Yeah. See what people willing to pay for it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's not like selling a a can of Coke, you know. It's a very different ball game. So.

Kasey McDonald (1:15:39)

You can buy a can of Coke at that shop for a dollar or you can go to that shop and buy it for six dollars. That's the same for.

Avi Kahn (1:15:43)

There you go. There you go. There you go. That's that's what I would change. But I don't think we're ever gonna get there because you know, different sets of governments and different philosophies between the left and the right and you know, they're even mandating publishing reserves, which I'm like, how do you do that? What's the point? but yeah. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (1:16:04)

Yeah, so lots of changes happening in our industry. But you know, some good and obviously some questionable. I won't say bad, I'll say questionable. But I think I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you today. Thank you so much, Avi, for being with us, sharing your insights, your learnings, your successes. And I wish you and your business and your team the utmost success for the rest of the year. And I can't wait to be hopefully I'll get a third gig at the one call to say we'll see. Yeah.

Avi Kahn (1:16:29)

Huh. What a pitch before the weekend.

Kasey McDonald (1:16:35)

Before the Weekend pitch just to get onto the conference. No, thank you so much. Thanks everyone. Happy listening. Thank you.

Avi Kahn (1:16:39)

I mean.

Peter Schravemade (1:16:42)

Great interview, Kasey. Thank you very much for taking the time out of your week to do with Avi Kahn. And also big thank you to Avi for generously donating his time to answer those questions. What wha what was your standout?

Kasey McDonald (1:16:54)

Look, I think for me, Avi has just got this nature, like when I was just talking to him. Like everything was just so calm, collected. But the big thing for me was when were talking about his leadership and the growth of his business, but the culture and how he hasn't just gone from, well, we've got one office to now five, and how he's been incredibly strategic about what that growth plan. was to get to those levels and he does and he did share sorry that you know some of those have been certainly mergers and acquisitions and there have been those that have come to him and his business but more importantly he hired ha has made mistakes in the past about how he's hired and potentially not fired fast enough and he's now changed that and he wants to be an attraction business but he allows his team and empowers them.

Peter Schravemade (1:17:44)

That and.

Kasey McDonald (1:17:50)

To say, well, what are you looking for? And what are the next phases of your career? And he supports them on that journey. And sometimes he's grown because they've said, I want to, I'd love to be a part of that. And how do we do this together? So I just think, you know, how he really articulated that, and maybe, you know, sharing those learnings of his mistakes and how he's gone, I need to do this better. I need to support my people better, I need to train them was a big thing that he said, right? That importance of training, consistency, and where he as a principal has to show up and how he acts and how he behaves resonates down to the rest of his team. So I think he he took a lot of responsibility and accountability as to what role he plays in owning a real estate business and what it means to be that within our industry. So I felt he was just, you know, so calm and collected, but incredibly proud of of his people and the business that he's created.

Peter Schravemade (1:18:39)

Yeah. Yeah, and he he also had had a go at the price guides. He said he'd abolish them. Yeah. he also had a comment about artificial intelligence and that it should create more human time. That's what it should be be serving. I a hundred percent agree with that. yeah, I thought his comments on the current market echoed what we had discussed earlier as well, which is great. But I think the thing that struck me the most is that. You know, despite the fact that he's running five offices, a hundred and seventy staff, and you know, nine hundred, nearly nine hundred sales a year, he kept coming back to the same thing. You know, whether it's culture, leadership, relationships, or technology, everything came back to investing in the people. And y you know, that's that we're hearing that was a that was a feature of REISA Revolution. That was also a feature of PIPA. If there was a current thing theme of my week this week. Is regardless of what's happening in the market, it's all about the people. And probably a good place to leave the today's episode of before the weekend. This is episode seven, by the way. We've clocked over a thousand listens so far in the seven that we've had. So you know, some there's obviously somebody out there listening to it unless you're hitting play every five minutes in the car, Kasey. Listening to listening to yourself. But so the big thank you, big thank you to anyone who's listening to this. You know, we. We didn't start this thinking that we would have an an audience or any any person listening to it. So the fact that there are actually people out there that find what we're talking about interesting, we're flattered to hear that and we hope that we can keep bringing you the content that matters. Now, if you if there's something that you wish to discuss or you think we need to talk about or th there's an issue that you see, Hello at BeforeTheweekend.com is is our email address. We're also on socials. Obviously, Kasey McDonald Tutaki is is out there somewhere. Peter Schravemade's my name. You can find me on most of the socials that are out there. And is if there's anything that you think we need to cover or if you've got any feedback, we're always happy to hear it. But you can find us on any of your podcasting channels. I noticed that 50% of our listeners are on Apple, iTunes at the moment. there's a large percentage on Spotify, and then it kind of goes into the miners after that. So thank you to whoever has subscribed and wherever you're listening to us from. And as you head into the weekend, both Kasey and I wish you the very, very best and happy hunting in whatever you're selling, leasing, negotiating. r I hope maybe you've got the weekend off. We're coming into a holiday, are we not? Are the school holidays happening? I think they are.

Kasey McDonald (1:21:29)

School school holidays, absolutely. But yeah, look, what a what a fantastic week in the industry. Thanks again to Avi Kahn for dedicating his time to have a chat with me. And I think that's a wrap for us today, Pete. And I think we both deserve a beer or a glass of wine, maybe, this evening. Yeah. So happy, happy, happy selling, everyone, and happy leasing for those that are that are working over the weekend. And we will see you next time on before the weekend.

Peter Schravemade (1:21:48)

Yep, for sure. Ciao. Bye.