Two Licences, One Portal and the Eight-Year Deposit

Peter Schravemade (0:05) G'day folks, and welcome to episode nineteen. Technically it's Thursday, the seventeenth of September, where I am, Kasey. Friday the eighteenth, I'm assuming, where you are. It's very very rare we meet on different we meet on different dates, but

Kasey McDonald (0:15) I am in Brisbane, yes.

Peter Schravemade (0:20) such is the case today. And we've got an action packed program for you today. Like we're there's there's a lot to discuss today. We have the REA and contracts. We've got a special guest, Sarah Cincotta, coming to talk to us about some things affecting New South Wales property managers and property managers in general. We've got some strata bosses who are in trouble. What else do we have? We've got someone burning real estate agencies down, we've got a follow up to the Tony O'Doherty. There's a South Australian story if we get access to it. It's been quite an action packed week for you back in Australia and yeah. And and you've been to a conference.

Kasey McDonald (1:00) Yes, I was at Fiona Blayney's PM1 conference on the weekend. So about 400 or so property managers, owners, BDM, so a really specialised event w was really great. I think definitely a few key standout sessions for me. One in particular, just loved the fact of this principal from a Ray White office down in Victoria, kind of the way he presented their story. And it and it was telling us all exactly what we know each and every day. But what I just love was the fact that he owned it as a principal and just went, these are all the mistakes that we did. This is then the outcomes that were occurring. But then we had to go, we gotta, we gotta change.

Kasey McDonald (1:44) And then by doing these things and working with the team, this is now where we're at. So I just loved kind of the transparency of it. He he was one of the first speakers on day one. And his sessions just stayed with me the whole time. I think just simply cause as a principal, you don't probably hear that as often that they're up saying, you know, I've made some wrong decisions, right? I focused on wrong KPIs. We were looking at the wrong outcomes. And we've pivoted and we went from minus four hundred something old a thousand, I think it was, to then being it pulling it back into the positive two hundred in that first twelve months. So it was just a really great story to hear. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (2:21) Yeah, good. I mean I suppose everyone makes mistakes and it's how you recover from them, right?

Kasey McDonald (2:25) Hundred percent. I th that it was just what was really great about it. And it wasn't anything spectacular, but it was just bringing it back to basics. And I think it's something we talk about all of the time. It's using your technology in full. It's not having every piece of tech just because it's fancy and shiny and new, you know, it's making sure everyone understands what their roles are, the importance of what how they play in that, you know, role and what it means for everyone to come together as a team and just making sure that though they are the right performance metric. Within the business. It's going to make each individual perform to their optimum peak and not just having some random, this is just what we're all needing to do and achieve. And it maybe not resonate with each individual goals as well. So it was just, yeah, it was really great. But you're in Denver, Colorado. REACH Boulder, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Peter Schravemade (3:13) Boulder, just at just at yeah, Boulder, just outside of Denver. Yeah, yeah. I'm here for yeah, REACH obviously I work I'm the managing partner of REACH Australia and New Zealand and and every year we get all of our cohorts from around the globe and we put them together. So there's coming together of about two hundred different proptech companies and I like I love this. This is my this is my jam. It's been inspirational day hearing founders' journeys and stories and it's really a chance for the property technology community to sort of gather together and go, without having to sell to anyone, without anyone, you know, having having to ask them questions, just to go level set and go, what are we doing and how are we going to move forward for the future? So closed conference, just the the the companies for which we have a stake in. But yeah, really, really great time we're having so far. And we've got one day to go, one day to go on the agenda. And I'm look I'm really looking forward to that one as well. But we should

Kasey McDonald (4:09) Yeah, awesome.

Peter Schravemade (4:11) We should hook in, right? We should get started. We've got such a massive day and a guest speaker coming. And and I know you sent me this, I think about five people sent me this this particular article. So it's obviously big news for real estate agents and it it's the the ACCC again looking at the REA Group, which by the way happened happened two years ago. And I don't think they're o I don't think they're off the radar, right? I don't think the ACCC have let the REA Group forget about the fact that they're watching what they do. And this is all about competitive contracts. Do you have the story?

Kasey McDonald (4:47) Yeah, I do. So what it actually says is that they investigated the REA Group's contracts with real estate agencies and it found provisions that required or like incentivise the agents, I guess we can also word it in that way, to list all or most of their properties on the realestate.com.au portal. And it required and/or incentivised it to be the premium listing feature, right? So that then attracts, of course, higher fees in for the agency to pay. So it's basically saying, hey, we're going to incentivise you to push everything through, but you must take on this kind of level of subscription, is how I'm reading it and interpreting it. What they, ACCC, were concerned about is that this may have breached the competition law by limiting rival portals and the ability to compete and restricting choice. That's the words, right? Restricting the choice, yeah.

Peter Schravemade (5:49) Yeah. And and I I see they've got a court enforceable undertaking for three years that they they can't require or incentivise agents to list all most properties, all or most properties on realestate.com.au. So li I'm I this is obviously a win for the agent and obviously for the consumer. But I should say that the ACCC hasn't issued legal proceedings and there's no finding of legal wrongdoing. But look, I would be I think I would be can incredibly worried if I was the REA Group. This is the sec the i having the ACCC me meddle around in your business dealings is not I can't imagine that's much fun. I would imagine there's legal is involved there and yeah, look I just I just think at the moment the ACCC are watching what what the REA Group do like a hawk and yeah, this this seems to be I don't I don't know your take on it, but it seems to be a win for everyone in the industry. We do need competition. That much is clear, right?

Kasey McDonald (6:48) Yeah, I do agree with that. I think, you know, that's probably the key here. But where I think the biggest win is is of course the consumer being the vendor and/or the landlord, who at the end of the day are the ones paying that end fee and and you know, to be in some locations charged onwards of five, six thousand dollars just for the listing to this the sale listing to be placed on the portal, let alone adding, you know, potentially styling photos. You know, maybe they need to do some works to get it to standard to sell. You know, you you're starting to package up onwards of, you know, twenty, thirty thousand of a marketing suite. You know, but five to six of that is just for it to sit on a portal.

Peter Schravemade (7:31) Yeah, and obviously that's that kind of money is before they get to the subscription. So you're you're just talking about the the list price. The agency

Kasey McDonald (7:39) Correct, yes.

Peter Schravemade (7:40) also has a subscription with it.

Kasey McDonald (7:42) Mm-hmm.

Peter Schravemade (7:42) By the time you add it up, it's a lot of money. It's a it's a bucket load of money. And look I I don't I don't think this is gonna be much of a win for the consumer. It it it it's it's good that there's competition, it's good that there's an o another opportunity, but I can't see it I can't see it forcing the REA Group to drop its prices at any stage. But look I am liking the fact that the ACCC have taken an interest in this particular area. I think that's gonna be a win for for everyone in general, if if they continue to do that.

Kasey McDonald (8:13) Yeah, I think as well, you know, the key here is that there's always been a lot of talk in our industry. And many talk to me about this of the fact that they haven't had that freedom or if they've felt so restricted and held, you know, by that contract, what those terms are. And you know, I guess to be able to leave or to have the choice to look at other marketing options. And I'm talking about it. From an agency perspective, right? And I know you get a lot of people talking to you about it as well. But it's because of those, I guess, terms and conditions of those contracts of having all listings in there. And then if you don't do that, maybe you don't get access to this. Or, hey, we'll also throw you this in.

Kasey McDonald (8:56) And so by bundling everything up, they just feel like they've they have to kind of stick with it because then if they don't do that, then they're maybe going to lose something else that's a sub product or a sub, you know, data set that they might be utilising every single day. So they just are like, well, we're just bound by this. We've got no freedom to leave. So I'm hoping that we now as an industry take some time to check our contracts, have a look at, you know, what we can now do as a part of this and, you know, understand, you know, do you really need some of those tools that have maybe been thrown in as a part of your bundle? Are you even using them? And what does this actually mean now for some of your tech stack as well?

Peter Schravemade (9:40) Yeah, well don't forget back in I forget when it was, it must have been in March, we we were talking about the exclusive deals that had been done with three of the major franchises. And so I'm imagining that the these are absolutely applying to those and they've they've waded through them like a knife through butter. We should we should move on. We're over in South Australia, so we've we've looked at we've looked at New South Wales and Victoria. Obviously the state governments are coming out there swinging towards the real estate agents and we we you we've spoken about this we we can't really understand why we we're not responsible for the supply and demand issue and now it appears as though the same thing's happening in South Australia with real estate professionals under this under scrutiny there appears to be a a parliamentary inquiry is is what's what's happening. It's going to examine honestly I've got to say this has been chaired by the South Australian Greens MP, Robert Simms. So this is this is dangerous. The Greens are not friends with the real estate industry. They see

Kasey McDonald (10:44) No I

Peter Schravemade (10:45) us as predatory in in every state that I'm aware of. I I'm not actually familiar with Robert Simms, but I'm a bit concerned about that. So they're looking to investigate misleading, deceptive, or unreasonable conduct, including underquoting inadequate appraisals, non-disclosure of property faults. Rental bidding, and j just the general conduct of property managers and agents. And they're looking to see whether existing regulation is adequate. Now, I as far as I know, there hasn't been anything that's triggered this other than the fact that there's a supply and demand issue and and, you know, people people are feeling aggrieved at the state of the fact that they can't find you know, they can't find shelter, which is a basic human right. So I I I think, you know, and there's a a really good quote here from REISA CEO Andrea Heading, who we've had on the program. REISA supported constructive scrutiny of the industry.

Peter Schravemade (11:45) That was evidence based and directed towards practical i improvement. Agents are not building inspectors, that been clear to say, engineers or construction professionals and should not be expected to identify technical or structural defects. She she's pushing for better dispute resolution through South Australia Court of Arbitration. That she's saying that there are delays which create uncertainty and hardship for landlords, tenants, or property managers, which is really interesting. She's actually flipped it on them and said, you know what, if we're going to look at this, let's make it one evidence based. Number two, let's, you know, r bear in mind that we're property professionals and we're not we're not in the trades. And number three, we've got enough delays with South Australia Court of Arbitration at the moment, which is them. That's that's that's the government. So excellent response from Andrea Heading, I think, there. What do you reckon about this?

Kasey McDonald (12:40) Yeah, absolutely. I think as well with the submissions, I think there's a big key in call out here. And to pro to Andrea's point, right? I think she makes some great statements there around that we're not inspectors, we're not engineers, we're not in construction, and and this just has to be based on evidence. And let's draw it back to that. And I so I think, you know, I'm calling out South Australian agents here as a part of the submission process. Make sure that you're also getting in and completing that submission.

Kasey McDonald (13:09) Otherwise you know, all the committee you're going to hear, I guess sometimes are those disgruntled renters and vendors and/or buyers, to your point, Pete, that maybe there haven't been approved for a property. Maybe they, you know, weren't able to get that deal across the line to buy that home, right? They're just quite short in that negotiation. And so they're going to then say, Well, this is not fair, I can't get a property. But that's not what what we're actually trying to solve here. Well, you know, certainly that's not what I'm out of this, that's not what we're trying to solve. But but that's all that they're going to hear in the submissions. And that's not evidence, right? That's not the evidence that we need.

Peter Schravemade (13:43) No, it'll be no, I agree. And I that's I think it's really great that Andrea has pointed back to to evidence base. I think you know that this is this is it's a it's a recipe for disaster and I really hope it doesn't go the way that I think it's gonna go. I really hope that whoever's chairing it is balanced in the way that they approach it. Otho otherwise South Australia will go the same way as Victoria, New South Wales at the moment, where the government's at odds with them and starts to put pressure on the property professionals for mistakes the government has actually made in supplying shelter to its constituents.

Kasey McDonald (14:23) Yeah, I y again, it's just bringing it back to that same point we keep mentioning, right? We're getting blamed

Peter Schravemade (14:28) It's crazy, isn't it?

Kasey McDonald (14:29) and put under scrutiny as the real estate agent. And and and and

Peter Schravemade (14:33) Yeah, it's crazy. It's

Kasey McDonald (14:34) and actually what we're trying to do and what our profession is all about is to help people buy houses and/or find their home to rent. Like that's actually what we're here to do. And we're getting blamed for decisions the government's making and/or reforms that they're putting into place that actually making us be this bad villain in the industry and as though we're not out to actually do what our professionals really care about. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (15:02) I I do have one tip for you, Kasey. I think there you know, if looking at the South Australia and and I I went I went and looked at houses there recently. I don't I don't know if I've said it on this program, but we were we were considering looking to buy in South Australia and one of the complaints I did have is the lack of the lack of pricing on properties. Everything is contact agent. And I would I I wonder if that's going to come out because it's it's a dead set nightmare. As a purchaser, it is a dead set nightmare that most of the properties in South Australia, if you go and drop a pin on any of the portals and have a look anywhere within the metropolitan area of Adelaide, everything says contact agent. There's no pricing on anything. And so, you know, I've got to make for f you know, let's say I'm looking at forty properties, I've got to make forty calls before I find out which of those y you know, it's like walking into store and having no prices on anything.

Peter Schravemade (16:01) Absolutely anything. And having to take it to the counter and go, How much is this T-shirt? How much is this T-shirt? How much it it's tedious and I've gotta say I I don't like it at all. But I'm I'm you know, that could actually be a legitimate concern that that the public bring forward. But l you know, let's just hope it's balanced. Let's let's just hope it's it's it's a little bit balanced. Let's move on 'cause we've this next one is a recap, right? I think this is the most fascinating story I've seen all year. And I'm really sorry for the people that that are involved in it, the victim. Obviously also I I was feeling sorry for the real estate agent Tony O'Doherty until I read this next article. I've gotta say, you know, he did something when he was twenty three, it's thirteen years on. For those of you who are just joining, he he got in an altercation in a pub, he he he hit someone. Back then I think he paid restitution or something like that for it. And then Yeah,

Kasey McDonald (16:59) Mm. Yeah, like a compensation fee, I think. Yes. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (17:03) and then at the at the end of last year, for whatever reason he found that the conviction hadn't been closed. They were waiting for him to settle it. So it was closed, it was finalised, he pled guilty to doing that. And that has somehow flagged with the Office of Fair Trading in Queensland. Who have removed the licence from this guy because she need be a fit and proper person and committing a what what do you call it a a assault is is not compatible with so that has gone on and we've followed that along and he's come out this week and said he's he's definitely gonna fight it. They're in the process of asking for an emergency hearing. I think the hearing has happened and the judge has gone away to to to make his decision on the case. And I think they're actually arguing that in Queensland this wouldn't have happened.

Peter Schravemade (17:59) The judge would have taken leniency on him, but it happened in Ireland and he shouldn't, you know, therefore it shouldn't be recognised and they should remove it. I I I don't I still don't like his chances of this getting across. But the thing that really annoyed me, and I like how to I I there's no justification for it. He didn't actually need to say this, but he came out and said my legal team aren't gonna like it, but there are people out there with a vendetta against me and they have caused this. And I I've gotta say that did that that doesn't come over well. I don't know, Tony. Well how do how do you feel ab how do you feel about that? That feels there's a there's a guy he punched in the head, right? So he did assault, he pled guilty

Kasey McDonald (18:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah. With a fracture ended with a fractured skull and a bre bleed to the brain. So h Tony did that, right? So there's there's a victim here. And in this situation, to come out and kind of make it as though you're now the victim in this. And I get it. There's

Peter Schravemade (18:55) Well I'm

Kasey McDonald (18:56) livelihood, you know, there's all of those things. And I guess as there's so many factors that need to be considered, you know, and that's why it's now with the courts. But yeah, I think wrong statement to come out publicly to stay. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (19:10) it's rough. It's rough, isn't it? Like, you know, I I was actually feeling sorry for him until he said this. And th that's that's the court of you know, that's the court of a public opinion. Which which i I don't really get into. So I don't know the terms and conditions of this. I'm not really across it. But i i it was almost like he was implying that somebody else had concocted this, which might like ha how does that work? Does it has somebody dobbed him into the Office of Fair Trading? Is that what he's saying? Did they receive a tip off and I I d I don't know. Like I'd I just I just don't think it was necessary to say it. I I think there are enough of us kinda going, Well, that's rough. Thirteen years on, something's triggered this. But now he's now he's made him out to be the he's the he's the the victim in all of this and there's somehow some villain out there. Well, I just don't know that he needed to put that out there and I wonder if the judge is looking at that going, I don't think he's really sorry about this.

Kasey McDonald (20:12) Yeah, I think I think what actions he had done prior to this in terms of, and we were both privy, we both received it, you know, there was an email out, you know, certainly with very much an empath empathetic tone. You could really see that there was remorse in that. And that, you know, whilst he was saying, Hey, look, I'm certainly going to appeal this decision and take the matter further, whilst that was written, you could absolutely hear that there was an apology there. Right. There was there was remorse. So now this is kind of a backflip. And to come out, I guess, you know, in the media and the public in the way that he has.

Kasey McDonald (20:50) I I don't know that that has actually then represented him in a light that he would have hoped. Is certainly my view. But look, at the end of the day, I think it the act allows for immediate cancellation for a serious offence and deems a person convicted of a serious offence within five years in Queensland or elsewhere. And so their argument is elsewhere can't mean anywhere outside of Australia. And that I think is, you know, where they are the judge, through, you know, the courts have got to decide. Is is that is d is elsewhere Australia only or is elsewhere everywhere in the world?

Peter Schravemade (21:28) Yeah, I I yeah, I don't know that I don't know that that's gonna come off for him. But we'll watch this case and we'll see where we go and but definitely like I you know I I I don't think he did himself any favours. I don't think he needed to say it, even if he thought it, even if it's true. I just don't think he needed to put it out there. He could have come back later on and said, I thought I thought it was a vendetta after everything's decided, but to drop that in the middle of a court case is super bizarre.

Kasey McDonald (21:54) Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (21:57) Let's let's go on to the next one.

Kasey McDonald (21:59) Next one, look, obviously we've heard something in the news this week around the an arson attack. And you know, to all of those involved. And of course, if this story is triggering to anyone, we do understand that there was a prior DV situation that has kind of led to this situation occurring earlier in the week. So if any of those listening this morning, if this is a sensitive topic for you, please, you know, we encourage you to make sure that you are seeking the appropriate help and counselling required. And we'll pop some links in you know, for numbers out there that can support you through this. But what what I guess was really shocking to see was that now the real estate agency who supported, I guess, you know, the family through this, has now lost their entire business, you know, burnt to the ground, everything inside of it, you know, lost.

Kasey McDonald (23:00) Obviously, I'm talking these are material things, right? But no one was hurt, thankfully. But we do have a 35-year-old Ormeau man who has been arrested for this incident for one count of arson, and he's due to face court. So it's all still obviously within the courts. But the the matter that I guess prompted this was a DV situation where the real estate agent was supportive, helping, trying to get, you know, the parties into appropriate housing and move things a along and and what's there. And now has ended up also, you know, losing business and being involved in this in a in a way in which they obviously didn't think that would occur. And I guess it's something for us to think about. Cause we'd had Aaron on from the REI New South Wales. You know, a couple of exactly if we think about

Peter Schravemade (23:50) Yeah. This is this is catast this is c this is catastrophic. Like

Kasey McDonald (23:55) like what they're trying to bring in there and and and the involvement, you know, from a property management perspective. And, you know, look at this. We have had someone, you know, as an agency to do the right thing, you know, as a human, to say, okay, this is a situation. I'm gonna move you out of this home and get you in over here and all of these things. And now this is what's occurred to the agency. So yeah, it's just yeah, look a really sad story

Peter Schravemade (24:19) Yeah. Yeah, I'd I d I I don't have

Kasey McDonald (24:22) that this has occurred. But it's just looking back right at that what all of those things that Aaron shared with us a few episodes ago, it's quite alarming.

Peter Schravemade (24:29) Yeah. Well it was it was yeah, it was only two. I I yeah, I just I really feel like out of this I was I was looking at the New South Wales, you know, the the the new legislation's coming in where they're going to be forced to change the locks on somebody and and act act as a decision maker as part of that or you know, a as soon as they get some kind of notification that DV has occurred, basically they're using the the property manager as a wedge between the two parties and and I mean hm I I I'm well aware, not no not not having been through this, but I'm well aware that there's there's one party there that needs a lot of support and it's very difficult to do that in cases where physical violence or, you know, a acts like this have been threatened.

Peter Schravemade (25:16) And we don't want to discourage that. We we want we want, you know, the party that needs support to be supported and and feel safe. And I yeah, I just I th I think this is I think this is evidence of the worst possible case scenario for those poor New South Wales property managers and I really I really feel that I hope that that the REINSW watch this case and and maybe take it to the powers that be. But remember the Office of Fair Trading in in New South Wales aren't listening to the Real Estate Institute of New South Wales. So it's quite dysfunctional there and I yeah, I'm I'm really, really hoping common sense prevails. We we can't have an industry where where the property manager has to has to intervene here.

Kasey McDonald (26:01) 100%. And look, you know, you know, look, I guess the piece out of this is that everyone was safe. There was no no one was hurt in this, you know. But if you know, we're thinking about two businesses that that have now been damaged, you know, they've got a restart. And you know, if you think about that, if this is, you know, other property managers, right? So this is I guess it's not technically. Legislated in terms of what involvement we need to have in Queensland, right? Whereas New South Wales are trying to bring this in to have strict rulings around what is expected of you. So if we think about the fact that that's potentially coming in and the more and more of these cases, is this is what we're going to see?

Kasey McDonald (26:44) We're going to then see that disgruntled person that can't get into that home go and blame the real estate agent for changing the locks. And then we're going to be seeing property managers get injured, you know, businesses being affected. So yeah, I just I feel for everyone that is involved. In this, it's not nice. But yeah, I we really need to now utilise this case and take a really good look at it, a hard look across Australia and determine, you know, what it is that we should or shouldn't be doing as real estate agents. How far truly should we be getting involved in these types of matters? So yeah, to your point, New South Wales, you need to be. Really looking at this.

Peter Schravemade (27:27) Yep, agreed.

Kasey McDonald (27:28) Well, yeah, let's move on to our next story. Something that's just came out in the media here in terms of another Queensland real estate agent, unfortunately under scrutiny and and losing licences. And it's in the I think Courier Mail, I read that article. And it's about a Brisbane real estate agent sentence over a stash of vile child abuse. Material. We have got the source that yeah, so Courier Mail is a source, but what it's actually saying here, and we certainly won't say names of the agency, but it is someone within Hamilton, Brisbane. And what he pleaded to was accessing child abuse material by a carriage service back in 2021 through to 2024. One count of possessing child exploit exploitation material. And he pleaded guilty, so maximum penalty of 15 years, I think, or 14 years in jail, I think it is. But has that been, has he actually gone to jail, Pete, or has it been a what do they call it, like a suspended sentence? I can't see within the article as to whether or not it was suspended,

Peter Schravemade (28:40) I'm well yeah

Kasey McDonald (28:43) or he's actually had to go to go to jail for that for that period of time due to this?

Peter Schravemade (28:49) Well he's he's he's been convicted. I think sentencing is still to come, so so he to that was the story is today he's been convicted. He he hasn't had his licence removed yet. But I look to be honest, I think he's going to jail. So I think the you know, that's a bit of a moot point. With a maximum of fifteen years, I I reckon he's gonna get a couple of years behind bars here. They describe it as a vile stash no, a stash of vile child abuse material. And

Kasey McDonald (29:19) Yes. Yeah. What's a carriage? Can I just ask what's a carriage service?

Peter Schravemade (29:25) Yeah, that's anything. So that could be you're texting it or you could be emailing it or any kind of distribution. They use that a lot in revenge revenge porn where you're dating somebody and you break up and they've got they've got sensitive photos of you or compromising photos. The carriage service is anything to distribute that. So he's been obviously found to be distributing, which is next level on top of you know, actually viewing it. So I I I I don't I don't know what he's going to get, but I I I reckon he's behind bars for for a little bit. Although they do talk about Chief Judge Brian Devereaux found that exceptional circumstances test was met. Largely on a year of engagement with forensic psychologist. Parnell having given p pa given passwords and device access to his partner and his employer no, they have sentenced him, so they're saying it's two years jail. Two years jail immediately suspended and a three year good behaviour bond. Well, in that case I th I yeah, I think I I'd be stunned if th he didn't get his licence taken away from him.

Kasey McDonald (30:31) Mm. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I can sort I can see here that it hit it expires in July of next year and that at the moment, is under investigation. Now yeah.

Peter Schravemade (30:44) Yeah, well yeah, surely surely, you know, we've got a guy done for assaults and now we've got a guy with a vile stash of child abuse material also distributing I look I I think he's got Buckley's of keeping his licence. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (30:59) Yeah. But it but as a business, right, Pete? You know, we've both been business owners. You know, in in these situations, there's also a a brand reputation that can also be tarnished as a part of this, as being the you know, the business owner. But, you know, in these situations, what can the employer do? I mean, did they know about it? Were they privy to it as a part of this?

Peter Schravemade (31:23) Well, I think this is that worst nightmare because he's he's come out as well saying that he was on drugs at the time and that caused him to do this and th I I don't know if they were the exceptional circumstances, but th there's certainly references to that. And I mean real estate agents and agencies have have a underground drug problem. I'm I'm very aware of I've been at conferences where I've seen that underbelly and well you know, like we speak about it all the time.

Peter Schravemade (31:54) We speak about in that case of the New South Wales guy where, you know, massive dust up at the start of the year and and he he got a life ban, I I really found the the franchise that was behind him responsible because there was absolutely no way they couldn't have known that there was a problem there. Like they must have known in this instance it's it's too hard to tell, but he y you know, do do agents see his turned a b turn a blind eye to substance abuse? 'cause that would a they would have had no way of knowing about the child abuse material, but he he's he he seems to have said that he has a a sustained history of of of drug use, so I don't I d I don't know.

Kasey McDonald (32:41) Yeah. Again, just, you know, the the misconduct that's happening. And you know, we're making these choices as individuals and everyone can do whatever they like in their own life, right? But, you know, this is having an immense effect on our industry, how we're trusted or, you know, mistrusted really. But also it's you know, those victims that are a part of this, you know, in this case, children. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (33:05) Yep, yep. Just shocking. This is the kind of stuff we don't want to see. So yeah, like it

Kasey McDonald (33:10) No, absolutely.

Peter Schravemade (33:11) disgusting. You know I'm not a fan of reality TV shows in general and I f I find the real estate ones to be even more even worse. I just you know, I'm yeah

Kasey McDonald (33:23) Why? The Block has been really entertaining. I s I just encourage you to get on on a Sunday and have and have a watch.

Peter Schravemade (33:30) Yeah, it's probably not gonna happen, but but this this this next story is is like it's two weeks old, but it's an ongoing thing. We didn't get a chance to discuss it because of that what was going on a couple of weeks ago. But two people from and correct me if I'm wrong, you know, maybe you should be bringing this one, but from what I understand this there's two Luxe Listings stars and they used to work together. Tam Tammy Soglan Soglinich and she's suing her co-star Simon Cohen in the federal court and she's saying there's sex dr she's she's bought out sex discrimination proceedings against him, who is her former boss. The f against her former boss and Luxe Listings co-star. So I don't know who her former boss is, but he doesn't appear to be named here. So Simon Cohen

Kasey McDonald (34:22) I think I think Simon Cohen was her former boss. Yeah, so it does indicate that they professionally separated. So I believe that Tammy used to work with Simon at Cohen Handler. And then they've obviously, you know, on the show Luxe Listings in Sydney. And yeah, she is suing for sex discrimination against him. In the federal court. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (34:53) And and these guys are buyers agents, so th not a not an agency as such. So I mean, I don't think we need to give this much air. Everything's el alleged at the moment, so obviously there's no we're not making any allegations of wrongdoing. This is all i before the courts at the moment, we'll see where we get to there. I noticed they

Kasey McDonald (35:11) Yeah, absolutely.

Peter Schravemade (35:13) they had mediation but that failed. So

Kasey McDonald (35:16) Yeah, there's been some investigations already underway with, you know, no evidence found at this stage, but it's still being heard in the courts and I'm sure more evidence to come to come forward. So yeah, we'll we'll keep a track of this story and we'll see see where it lands.

Peter Schravemade (35:33) Yeah, absolutely. And the next is back to CGT and and and cap well, capital gains tax and the changes that are there. But I think the real important I don't r I don't really want to focus on this. We've we've spent a lot of time. It's this one I think the interesting part of the article is i is the eight year deposit that everyone's talking about. Do do you do you understand what they're saying here, Kasey? As far as the eight year deposit is?

Kasey McDonald (36:04) Yeah. So the what they're saying is that at the moment, in terms of what it would take, you know, say for a 25-year-old to get to the deposit that is required, that they would have, let's just say they started with 50,000. So the modeling and how I understand it is that they invested 50,000, let's say, in shares, and their target is to get to the 150,000. So that 20% deposit they need to do to buy. A $750,000 home. And that goes from under the current modeling with the tax changes to capital gains, goes from 20 years to 28 years. So that's where that that eight years comes in. Yeah. So they're saying it's going to be another

Peter Schravemade (36:48) Another item.

Kasey McDonald (36:53) eight years. So 25 year old says, right, that's what I want to do. It's ri in shares, technically still going to take them 20 years to get to that. But it's going to technically take them another rate. So th they're just trying to explain here that are, you know, just certain inflations, interest

Peter Schravemade (37:09) So

Kasey McDonald (37:09) rates, all of that, that that's the difference now of where we're positioned because of these changes.

Peter Schravemade (37:14) So able to purchase without lenders mortgage insurance, which is why they go to the twenty twenty percent,

Kasey McDonald (37:18) Correct. Yes.

Peter Schravemade (37:20) and twenty eight years on top of twenty five, which correct me if I'm wrong, is fifty three.

Kasey McDonald (37:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. So I think y what I took out of this is, you know,

Peter Schravemade (37:27) Yeah, that's that's that's that's nuts. That's yeah. A obvious obvious obviously

Kasey McDonald (37:35) what is a well right now, can a without mum and dad, without you and your wife and myself and my husband and you know, having purchased and had property for a little while, let's say we didn't. Our children are not gonna have the bank of us. And they're then they're on their own. And so this whole all of these changes were obviously to support that younger generation coming in and being able to afford to buy. But if you look at this, just even the first aspect, if they've got 50,000 and they say, Hey, I'm gonna deposit this because I'm gonna start to save and I'm gonna use shares as an example to get that my money, the tax I think just on that is already high enough. But then it's gonna increase, of course, with these changes. So they're gonna be. In their fifties before they can even afford. Now what's the price of properties going to be in another twenty years' time?

Peter Schravemade (38:27) Yeah, 'cause we don't factor that in. This is just all about the deposit and saving for what is currently today. Yeah,

Kasey McDonald (38:30) Yeah. Yeah. Correct.

Peter Schravemade (38:34) it's a it it is really a bleak picture and I can understand why, you know, looking looking at the whole affair, we because we haven't factored in the thirty percent that the banks are saying rents are gonna go up, like these people I'm assuming need to rent somewhere. So that would obviously impact that as well. Like it just seems crazy, th but it you know, the lack of hope in the generation that that is up and coming at the moment or looking at at housing. So

Kasey McDonald (39:03) Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's just, you know, the it's all based on these assumptions. It's inflation. It's, you know, all of these things. And of course now, a lot, you know, that's out in the media this week, which I'm sure we'll get to hear about over the next few weeks, is the interest rates, inflation. And largely what here has been shared, is that it's got to do with the government spending. It's not because you're you and I are out there spending a fortune. So yeah, I guess th now the interest rates and the tax and all of those things on the debt that we've got as a as a nation is actually where all of these inflation w where some of the inflation is certainly rising.

Peter Schravemade (39:43) this next ar article is out of New South Wales again. And we've seen this before. We saw this a couple of weeks ago. I'm not gonna mention the names, but there's a a director of a strata company and she has had her licence cancelled and has been disqualified from being involved in any kind of licensed business by New well, New South Wales Fair Trading ha have done this. They are saying that she took part in the removal of computers, electronic equipment and other office items that the court appointed manager needed to reach the business records. They she also changed the locks, which is like this is this is crazy stuff.

Peter Schravemade (40:21) Th and the background to all of this is that in twenty twenty five Fair Trading had found that that this company, the same company she works for, had compliance failures including inadequate conflict of interest disclosures and pr professional contact issues. And I th I'm fairly sure we talked about this because the general manager of the same company had had his licence cancelled and been disqualified. He also obstructed New South Wales Fair Trading Officers during the execution of a search warrant. So, you know, where we're sitting at the moment is that I Th I I actually think there's a bit of bit of heat on the strata companies at the moment with regards to their practices and obviously New South Wales Office of Fair Trading are looking at that in great detail.

Kasey McDonald (41:06) Yeah. Definitely. I think, you know, that conflict of interest, right? We've definitely have covered a story about that in the past. Of where does that sit? You know, is that as a strata and as a part of a strata committee or buying into a strata building about looking at what are within, I guess, the parameters of, you know, where are they spending their money? Who are those contractors, like making sure that people or consumers in the market are really diving deep. Into getting that information readily available to them. And it's because of these matters, right? So yeah, I think you know, whilst it's not directly a real estate agent, they're still required to, you know, perform tasks and act professionally under the act because they're still providing homes, you know, and they're still a part of that buying-selling rental aspect. So yeah, it's really again just another misconduct and we've got net you know, fair tradings, REIs, we've got everyone out there investigating us all in in what it is that we're doing.

Peter Schravemade (42:12) Yeah, well the interesting part about this is that they've lost their licences for obstruction. Th th they haven't you know, not for what the regulator was investigating. Which is interesting because, you know, a lot of people think if you know they might be doing the wrong thing, I'll just destroy the records and there'll never no no evidence in it. It appears you know, I think when that happens I think they have to throw the book at them because they don't really know whether what they were investigating was correct or not. So it's it's interesting obstruction. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (42:43) Yeah. And I guess if you know, straight away I guess that makes you feel or or seem, appear, that you are guilty of something that if you're going to destroy it and change the locks so that no one it just doesn't look good, right? So yeah, if you didn't have anything to

Peter Schravemade (42:51) Mm. It doesn't look good, does it? No. Doesn't look good at all.

Kasey McDonald (42:57) hide, you certainly wouldn't take that course of action. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (43:02) I suppose we're getting close to our interview with Sarah Cincotta. But there's been a change to the way bonds are dealt with in New South Wales, right?

Kasey McDonald (43:12) Yeah, definitely. So New South Wales have now officially rolled out their smart bond rental bonds statewide. So what the scheme is, it's a when a renter is moving house, they can now transfer their existing bond to their new tenancy instead of paying that sort of second full bond and then waiting for that first one to be released. So you know how it's going to work and similar to that change in Victoria. Victoria has just recently done this as well. Is that the landlord and or the agent lodges the bond request online? They send the renter a notification and they choose to either transfer their existing bond or pay cash. The transfer costs, I think it's about $25, from what I've read, versus paying up front front cost being nothing. If the new bond is higher, then the old one, the renter, of course, has to pay that difference. If it's lower, then they get that remainder back. One thing to call out is that if it's the former landlord or the agent, of course, making a finalised claim on the old bond, the government pays the landlord up front, and the renter then needs to repay the government back later. So,

Peter Schravemade (44:26) Well hang on, what is that what does that what does that mean? What?

Kasey McDonald (44:29) what that means is as a property manager and/or a landlord, let's say we've now completed our vacate inspection and we've identified. That there are differences from the entry condition report. That could be damages, there could, you know, there's

Peter Schravemade (44:40) Okay, there's a there's an issue.

Kasey McDonald (44:43) an issue. And it has meant that we've required to place a claim on the bond. That could also be maybe they owed a few days' rent. There could be some issues, right? So we make that claim. And what this is indicating is that if we do and/or a landlord does, the government will pay the money for that remedy, and then the renter will be required to pay the government back.

Peter Schravemade (45:07) Right. So that underwriting okay, that that's great. Well I I I the face of it, I I think this is a r fantastic thing. You know, I'm not so sure about the twenty-five dollar fee. I mean what w w that's that seems pretty steep to me, but hang on, you know, let's just go with it for a second. So I'm going from property A to property B and I can transfer that directly across. If it's under I have to pay up. If it's higher,

Kasey McDonald (45:25) Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Peter Schravemade (45:34) they refund the money to me. But in in you know, if the property manager goes through and they find that the dog's torn up all the carpet and chewed the curtains or you know, smashed glass somewhere and they've got a bill for that, they're gonna make a claim. The government will underwrite that claim, they will pay whatever is in the the bond back as reviewed by New South Wales Office of Fair Trading, I assume, or whoever it is, the court yeah I'm pretty sure it's New South Wales Office of Fair Trading or or the Court of Arbitration there. But and then the government will invoice the tenant for that or i i they'll have to pay it back. That's that's I I don't see a loser here. I I this sounds great. I I mean I guess we can ask Sarah in a second what she thinks, but do you do you see an issue to this? I I don't think this is a pro problem. This this sounds fantastic.

Kasey McDonald (46:24) Well, I I don't know that it's a problem. I think it's an opportunity for us to look at how in which we operate. So, you know, look, as we know, not everyone has just got four or five thousand dollars sitting there ready for their next tenancy. And there could be a reason in which they need to move to the next ten like a legitimate reason, right? So I think from that situation, you know, the change over timing, that incoming bond no longer being dependent on the tenant. So, you know, property managers are going to have to look at their operational processes because it's has always been that we're unable to release keys until we've certainly received that bond and it's been receipted in as an example. So it would be understanding now what verification or confirmation do they get from the government that that's been officially transferred. I think it also allows maybe for more applicants to be considered for homes, because if we say to them, well, if you haven't got the bond, then you're kind of in the, well, maybe we can't, you know, we're not able to obviously suit pick you as that suitable applicant.

Kasey McDonald (47:31) Maybe this now opens up more that are able to use this scheme because of the fact that maybe they're also able to pay, you know, they're paying that bond back as well. I think what's really great here is that is that it's been confirmed with that government supporting, should there be a claim on it. And that then the renter has to pay the government back. So it is taking away that burden for the property manager to be worried about debt recovery processes or potentially additional tribunal matters, which if we all know can take months sometimes when we're just trying to maybe claim a small amount and the tenant's disputing what that deduction is. So there's probably some questions around that. Like what if the tenant does dispute the claim we've put in? Who then how does it actually roll out? So there's probably are still some questions that maybe haven't been quite answered here. But I think overall, it it's just creating, I guess, a maybe a a larger pool of applicants being able to now afford to get into a rental property, especially the younger ones that are out. Buying expensive handbags and shopping and spending their money on fantastic avocado smash avo on toast as as I saw in the yeah as in the media. That's what the young

Peter Schravemade (48:43) Smashed avo, yeah. Yep.

Kasey McDonald (48:46) ones are doing, instead of saving their money for their rental bond well, now we have our interview with the fabulous Sarah Cincotta from Rise with Sarah Cincotta, one of Australia and New Zealand's BDM coaches within the real estate industry. Welcome to Before the Weekend, Sarah.

Sarah Cincotta (49:03) Hello, good to be here, good to see you both.

Peter Schravemade (49:06) Yeah, no, thank you for thank you for jumping on. I really appreciate it. This is gonna be great. It's been a while been a while since we caught up, so it's nothing better than a podcast to bring

Sarah Cincotta (49:15) It's been a long time.

Peter Schravemade (49:16) it back together.

Sarah Cincotta (49:18) Reunite it.

Kasey McDonald (49:20) Reunited, yeah. How's your week been? Tell us what have you been up to this week?

Sarah Cincotta (49:25) It's been good. I've actually been deep diving into a lot of rent rolls across Australia at the moment specifically. And yeah, it's very interesting times for many. So but I'm a bit optimistic. I think there's always opportunities out there and I come in and with my clients and bring that kind of energy. Otherwise I think we can get a bit caught up in all of the shit that the media tends to spin.

Kasey McDonald (49:51) Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Really good point. I think, yeah, look, it's it's tough and the media's already sh showcasing how tough it is, right? So, you know, we we need to give them some positivity and and help them through, you know, the property managers, especially. And I know your base in Victoria. So you'd be seeing a lot on the ground there. So you know. W talk me through that. What what are you hearing from property managers? You know, what are you hearing on the ground when you're in those businesses?

Sarah Cincotta (50:23) It's it's a very mixed bag, to be honest with you both. Like I've got a client at the moment, she's done 70 new managements in two and a half months in Victoria. And

Kasey McDonald (50:35) Great.

Sarah Cincotta (50:35) so some people might be like, How is she doing that? And then others are reporting that yes, their rent rolls are shriek shrinking. And there's no word of a lie that yes, since the budget and all of the changes that we have faced in legislation in Victoria, that there has been investors leaving, they've been selling their properties, but there are still some unsatisfied landlords that are out there not happy with their current agent. And so I think when we look at what's happening, we need to understand that retention is just as important right now as well as growth. I think there's two components that every business did to be looking at. And so that's what I'm really seeing and hearing at the moment is yes, they're losing properties and some could be avoidable losses.

Kasey McDonald (51:30) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you and I were chatting a few weeks back actually around I guess those investors exiting the market. And we were we were chatting about an article, you know, which is titled Rents to Soar, as new data reveals hundreds of homes are vanishing, right? So I'd love to kind of dive into that article because you did just sort of mention there that whilst retentions is a big play, investors are leaving. And some are growing and some are not. And hundreds of homes a week are exiting. But we're not we're not replacing them, right? As in investors are not buying right now. So talk us through that that article and some commentary around what's going on within the shrinking rental pool market.

Sarah Cincotta (52:16) I think the biggest message from the article specifically that we're referring to is I think we need to broaden the way that we think about growth and also the service that we have to our clients, which are our landlords and our tenants. I think there's a misconception out there that just rents are going up everywhere with a hundred dollars a week. It was just yesterday I was speaking to a director in Sunbury, Victoria, and like there's over a hundred and sixty properties on the rental market right now. So in that specific area, rents are definitely not soaring and they're not going up $100 a week. But if you look in specifically more saturated areas where like let's just say more inner city Melbourne, typically a friend of mine actually she resides in Bentleigh East. She's been in her property for the last three years. She received a rent increase of $50 a week.

Sarah Cincotta (53:13) Able to negotiate with the landlord, they met in the middle, $25 extra a week. So, yes, it is happening, but I think the media is saying that everywhere is just going to go up by, you know, $100 or a certain percentage. And I don't think that is the case. And we are also seeing that when it comes to the other side of what's happening in society, cost of living, you know, salaries not increasing, then we also have to look at specifically where the properties are located, the demographic of the renters there, they're not going to get those $50, $100 rent increases simply because of the demographic in that area. So I I really think that we've got a a part really important part to play here in property management. And it's yes, we're looking after our investors and we want to talk strategy with them, but also now more than ever.

Sarah Cincotta (54:08) The data that actually agencies collect from applications, inquiries that come through, the type of demographic is so important when speaking to new investors or investors that are with other agencies that perhaps are $200 under market right now. And so we're also seeing that too. So I think that if we are going to s continue seeing rental properties leaving. The market because of sales or you know they can't afford to to hold it because of all of the costs increasing, then we really need to look at growth about the retention and really looking at the numbers inside a business, like how many properties were lost due to sales, how many were lost due to changing agencies, how many became owner occupied? Right? How many investors left because they were genuinely unhappy and didn't see the value? How many investors were considering selling before anyone in their agency or the team even knew about it? Right?

Kasey McDonald (55:15) Yeah, great. Like really, really good points here. And I think, you know, Pete and I have been chatting throughout many of the episodes around how property management is certainly just changing, right? It's not just legislation and that's a part of it, but it's about how much we need to perform. And it's not just property management, it's it's sales as well. We talk about the shift in the market, and this is now, you know, I guess weaning out those that have never done prospecting before because I haven't had to, because just as an abundance of buyers. So it's kind of like I'll just turn up to an open and there'll be someone who'll buy the property, right?

Kasey McDonald (55:50) Whereas now we've got to sit back and say, how do we prospect well? And it and this is then the same as what's happening within the PM space, right? And and and to your point, how the BDMs, if the business owners do have them, how they need to be looking at what are their roles are they contacting all their existing landlords? Are we understanding what that data means in our business? And what are we doing to go and attract existing landlords that, as you said, might be under market rent and how can we bring them into our our business?

Peter Schravemade (56:22) It's funny, Kasey,

Sarah Cincotta (56:22) Yeah, for sure.

Peter Schravemade (56:23) bic because we had Josh Deckart on a couple of weeks ago and he has a company called Zapiio who analyses whole rent rolls and actually assists the

Sarah Cincotta (56:33) Magnificent.

Peter Schravemade (56:33) principal, the principal and the property manager understanding w what might be the next steps for the landlord. And he was suggesting that you know there were so many houses leaving the market that that might might be a play for principals out there. What what are you what are you actually seeing? Like how do principals negate? This. Like they're they're watching their rent roll fall and I I hear you say that somebody signed up seventy odd od od od odd new l listings. I'd I'd have to say you know across Australia that's gotta be a bit of an anomaly. But that there are like contracting rent rolls at the moment. How does the principal deal with this?

Sarah Cincotta (57:13) Think to be completely honest, I don't think they are enough, Peter and Kasey. I honestly don't think that they are tackling it. I I honestly

Peter Schravemade (57:20) Real they're not they're not looking at it? They Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (57:23) Mm-hmm. Okay.

Sarah Cincotta (57:25) Think that right now, and going back to what Kasey said, it's like the changes aren't coming, the changes are already here. And I talk about this all the time about the evolution from simply being the title of a BDM or a property manager. Becoming more of an investor relationship specialist, right? Like we need to be able to talk strategy. We need to be able to understand the investor. We simply cannot stop at just managing a property or a tenancy or the services that are tick boxes or when we fall into the task. So I think what principals and leaders should be focusing on right now is actually upskilling their to think about. The investor and understand the investor. What's the investor actually trying to achieve? Why did they even buy that investment property in the first place or looking to buy an investment property? What concerns them? What's happening with their property? What has changed in their circumstances since the budget or since legislation changes across Australia and New Zealand?

Sarah Cincotta (58:32) Are they thinking about selling? Has that been on their mind? Would they consider purchasing again? Like so many investors across Australia and New Zealand have equity in their current PPRs or investment properties that they're actually not doing anything with. So there's a place that we can actually help these investors and our current clients with wealth creation. Because we all say, we help maximise the return on our investors. But when I'm looking under the hood in a lot of businesses, they actually are not doing anything to provide that service. Otherwise, they would assume that it's all about just the annual lease renewal or annual rent increase. That's pretty much where it stops across the board. So I think that directors and leaders should be looking at right now, upskilling their team so that they can understand their clients and give them the information that could help them make more better informed decisions and guide them correctly with do I hold or do I sell?

Sarah Cincotta (59:32) Do I purchase another property and I'm not saying that we're buyer advisors or we're financial financial planners or accountants or we're mortgage brokers, but when we look at our web in real estate, we should be connected with all of those people anyway that are already providing that level of service to our clients that we can tap into to elevate that. Like Kasey for you, for your business, like with Zapiio, right? It's using those people out there to get them in. Educate the team and to be able to have those conversations with investors. I think the other thing, and this isn't so much a leadership or director issue, but I think I was talking to someone yesterday, and we were actually talking about the entry level into property management is quite low. Right. And when I've spoken at conferences before and I've asked property managers, can you raise your hand for me if you've ever owned an investment property before? Not even fifty percent of rooms are raising their hands. And so that's when I go back to that piece that we need

Peter Schravemade (1:00:30) Well that that probably s prob that probably scarred Sarah. You know.

Sarah Cincotta (1:00:40) Maybe, maybe, but then if we look at the bigger picture and we want our we want to be able to have our our professionals have these conversations, but they don't even understand the journey in the first place. And I think that is a big missing piece in our in our profession.

Peter Schravemade (1:00:55) No, no, no, I'm with I'm with you. That's a really good point. But is it is it like, you know, the principal's kid ends up in jail and the dentist kid has the worst teeth? Is it is it is it is it a case of the property manager just doesn't wanna have to bother about that? I d I don't I don't know. But yeah, you you raise a you raise a good point. It'd be great to see property managers investing at the same time so that they understand the plight of the investor at the or the the landlord, you know.

Sarah Cincotta (1:01:21) Yeah, well I mean they don't even have to have purchasing this an investment property, but understanding the journey. You know, like have they even had a look at a contract of sale before? You know, like do they understand settlement terms and going to pre settlement inspections and the process of purchasing sorry, liaising with a mortgage broker?

Kasey McDonald (1:01:45) Yeah, yeah, really, really good points. Yeah.

Sarah Cincotta (1:01:46) I think we gotta l level that up. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (1:01:49) And to your point around education, I totally agree. I think I mentioned, if it wasn't last week, the the week before, of you know, that younger generation coming in and they absolutely are seeing that property management can be a career. And I agree it can be. It's not just a job, it's something that can really provide you an immense amount of success and reward. But

Sarah Cincotta (1:02:10) Absolutely.

Kasey McDonald (1:02:11) you know, we're then dealing, unfortunately, sometimes with matters that we've never experienced. And I'm, you know, I'm talking about the youngers that are then needing to speak, you know, with the likes of, you know, really old men like Peter here on the call that says, Hey, I can't afford

Sarah Cincotta (1:02:23) Ha ha ha ha.

Kasey McDonald (1:02:24) to pay my rent today. And you know, but look, this is what I've got going on. But more importantly, as a more mature male, he's not gonna ring his twenty one year old property manager. What's he's gonna do is kind of hide behind it, just wait for the text to come through from, you know, the system that says you're in arrears Pete, right? So like we we we don't know how to educate them or we haven't done a very good job in educating the youngers coming in on exactly that point. What does it mean? But not just how do we chat to the investor, but how do we have these really great conversations with tenants who also actually might be investors?

Sarah Cincotta (1:03:01) Yeah, absolutely spot spot on. And I was I was speaking to a director the other day. She's also a BDM and one of the biggest shifts she found was actually realising that behind the titles of a landlord or a tenant, right, they're actually humans. And so they will be experiencing certain things and sometimes all it takes is that conversation, like what we were saying, is have your circumstances change. For someone to go, they actually give a shit.

Kasey McDonald (1:03:34) Mm-hmm.

Sarah Cincotta (1:03:34) They actually care. And then I think that is just showcasing the genuine human connection that we do in property management on a daily basis. And I then think that it creates an enormous amount of opportunity for property management businesses to actually demonstrate their value and become a genuine source of information and give confidence. To their investors that they're not just simply managing a property. We have to look beyond that, right? Because it's here. And I've seen some really great businesses doing that already. Especially with all the noise with investors right now. Like you go on Facebook in these Facebook groups and just flooded, flooded, flooded, flooded with questions that they're not even talking to their current property managers about. And then they're going to the World Wide Web and seeking guidance. Like why is that happening?

Kasey McDonald (1:04:27) Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that's a that was actually a question that I I yeah, I I

Peter Schravemade (1:04:28) Well d was a good question, yeah.

Kasey McDonald (1:04:32) really wanted to ask you because I know that you obviously are a part of some of those groups. So so talk us through that. What are what are some of their frustrations? What are these investors worried about? What are some of those questions that they're asking?

Sarah Cincotta (1:04:44) So I think the economics of being a property investor, if we look at it, it's not really a singular one issue. There's conversations consistently around increasing costs, the changing of legislations, interest rates, insurance, maintenance is a big one that I see all the time, as well as court appearances and things that have happened when a tenant has vacated. And if their property is actually returning the right revenue for their investment property. And so when I when I look at these conversations that are happening, I just look at like, wow, there's so many opportunities out there for our professionals to be the source for their clients, to not have to go to ChatGPT, which is probably going to feed them the wrong information.

Sarah Cincotta (1:05:40) Not go onto these Facebook groups and then be flooded with investors that are actually in a different state to them. They're not even in the same state. So that they're not aware of the legislation that is actually impacting that landlord situation. Right. And so I think the I think what I'm seeing the most from these Facebook groups is the uncertainty from people regarding their property. They simply don't understand. Enough what's happening and how that impacts them and get a really clear picture on the next step forward. Right. So I always think I yeah.

Peter Schravemade (1:06:17) Yeah. So as well so we we've been hearing from multiple guests about uncertainty in the market. You do you see that you see that as a massive opportunity for your property managers or the ones that you coach to reach out to them and say, you know what, you know, let's have a let's have a chat about this, maybe an ask me anything session or something like that. Is it is is that what is that the direction that you're going? Is that what you're seeing?

Sarah Cincotta (1:06:45) Yeah, I think at minimum property managers or BDMs should be meeting with their clients every year. And I'm not talking just a phone call or an email, a meeting, whether it's in person or a Zoom meeting, at least once a year to be able to just have the conversation. Ask me anything. The other thing that I have been helping a lot of my clients do is on a monthly basis, instead of just sharing, and and you'll probably have both seen it. The end of the month, everyone wants to share their flashy stats of you know how many properties were leased, and this is how many inquiries we've got, and this is how many properties we listed, and there's no substance in those posts, right? So it's taking that data that I was talking about earlier that the agencies have to educate their current clients, all the people in their database, because there's thousands and not just landlords, renters.

Sarah Cincotta (1:07:39) So they they can see and they are getting that information. And that data from the people that they're already connected with rather than hearing from the news, which gives a pretty broad broadcast of what's happening, not necessarily what's happening, where their property is located. So this could be a video from the team, it could be a what's the word I'm looking for? A blog article, it could just be a market insight report. Like once a month, it's not that hard to pull the data. Now with AI, you know, you can get really, really quick at at doing these things just so our clients keep seeing and hearing from us and giving them that certainty and and giving them the option like, hey, if you have any concerns, here's a link. Book in a time. Let's chat.

Peter Schravemade (1:08:28) So they become the the the property manager effectively becomes the source of advice and confidence. Like it's a it's a great concept and I I'm I'm with you. I don't I don't see that enough. I know my interactions with my property managers have been well let's say professional, but at what point do you think a property manager might overstep a mark in providing advice to their to their landlord? Like, does it become a a an issue let's say they start asking them questions about investment and and whether the retention of the property's right and things like that. Do do you think there's a palm off stage where they go, you know what, that you know, that's that's really not mine. Do you think there's a chance that a property manager might overstep the mark there?

Sarah Cincotta (1:09:28) I think there'd have to be boundaries in place in internally with what you can and can't discuss and get really clear on what that meeting looks like. And also then I would say that this is a perfect opportunity for the partners of the businesses or the individuals come into play here. So for instance, great question, Peter, about the understanding. The valuation of your property if it was to sell right now. What I would love to do is introduce you to Kasey, who's the expert in what's happening in the sales market. I'm going to do that introduction for you so that we can come back in a couple of weeks, have this conversation again and you've got a clearer, bigger picture. Or, you know, Peter, you mentioned that you're, you know, you've been hit a bit hard with regards to your interest rates. Have you spoken to your previous mortgage broker?

Peter Schravemade (1:10:17) Good one. And I think a largest cover is a one called time. Yes, I heard

Sarah Cincotta (1:10:17) Yeah. Or do you need an introduction to a specialised mortgage broker? Yeah. So this is when we look at the people that we're connected with that help elevate that experience from our clients. Or for instance, Kasey, with you know, your business or or Zapiio, like getting them involved and connected. And I think this is one of the most amazing things that we have in property management. We are connected to so many other businesses, other professionals, other tradesmen, and typically the investor never sees them. They don't see them, right? But we're working with these incredible people. So let's highlight these particular businesses or people that are actually helping our investors with maintenance or with compliance, you know? And that's what I'm talking about, though those videos or those blogs or those newsletters that you can send out and be like, hey, here's our you know, let me introduce you to Kasey. Kasey is our X, Y, and Z. And you know, Kasey could do a video, sends it out to her her clients.

Sarah Cincotta (1:11:20) I mean, Kasey, we're doing something like that recently for mine, right? I want to I wanna tell a story. So, and this is where I think the that it's so valuable and and this is why I think that there's so many opportunities. Now I'm not I want to put a disclaimer here. I'm not telling people that you should target. Other agencies' rent roll. We just want to make that very clear, right? However, I'm a landlord and I'm a tenant. We moved into this current rental property in February this year. When I received the condition report, the condition report was still a paper condition report. Let's just let that sink in for one a second. A paper condition report, right? The previous tenant had lived at this property for six years. The condition report that I received had not been amended or edited in any way from six years ago. So when this condition report was returned back to the property manager, can you imagine all of the notes on this condition report, Pete and Kasey? Right? Not just because I know, but

Kasey McDonald (1:12:25) Mm-hmm. And the property manager would have been hating on you. Yeah.

Sarah Cincotta (1:12:30) Yeah, probably. But that's the first thing, right? So the second thing is, since we moved in, there has been so much maintenance. I I can't even count how much maintenance there's been on this property. It's been month after month we've had something someone here. They've had to replace the the ducted heater, they've had to replace leaks, they've had to do repointing on the roof. That's thousands of dollars. Whilst we're living here, by the way, which obviously isn't ideal when I've got a two-year-old that still has a nap during the day. You know, we work from home, but we've made it work. My point is though, this investor, though, of this property may not know that that's actually not the value that they should be receiving because of what they are paying this specific agency. They may not know. Right. And I would say it's it's pretty up pour that this has occur occurred for this investor because there simply hasn't been what's the word I'm looking for here? Enough care, enough diligence from the property manager. You know, when they did the condition report, they they clearly didn't discuss any of these things with the landlord, but also it's costed this landlord a lot of money.

Sarah Cincotta (1:13:58) About to resend trains and resend trains. So going back to those conversations that we can be having, I don't think that's stepping the mark, Peter. If we can sit down and have a conversation to the landlord and be like, hey, over the last 12 months, this is how much money we've spent on maintenance of the property. My suggestion is we get someone to come in, look over everything so we can start planning or have a discussion about what needs to be done now, what's urgent, right? What are some things that are are red flags at the property, like your gutters or your fencing or your roof tiles and things like that, right? Things that are common things that you can see. So that the landlord has certainty that at some point in time these things need to be done. This is how much it's going to cost. Right. And I guess Kasey, this is when you come in too. The landlord's looking at this going, well that's going to be a lot of money. Right? And if we can't put the rent up because of the particular area that the landlord is in, then what other option does that landlord have? So

Kasey McDonald (1:15:00) Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (1:15:02) Find another property manager.

Kasey McDonald (1:15:03) Yeah, really important point, right? Like it's about, you know, making sure we're

Sarah Cincotta (1:15:05) Find another property manager, fix up.

Kasey McDonald (1:15:07) we're leveraging the partners that we have in the industry, right? It's it's you make a really valid point there about that. But yeah, some really awesome tips this morning, so you know, Sarah. And it's actually really great to hear as well, you know, what our investors are worried about, frustrated about, you know, what you're hearing and seeing certainly. Know, within officers, but more importantly from the the investors directly themselves. So we really appreciate you joining us here this morning on Before the Weekend. But tell us for those who are listening this morning, how can they get in contact with you if they're interested in your BDM coaching?

Sarah Cincotta (1:15:45) Well, thank you. So I guess, you know, based on the conversation and knowing that there are a lot of opportunities out there, growth is a beautiful thing, you know, and it's what I live and breathe. So if anyone would like to know more about how I help specifically BDMs or property managers growing their rent rolls with elevated customer service and frameworks, then you can head to Rise with Sarah Cincotta on all of the platforms or my website and we'll love to see you there and connect with you there.

Peter Schravemade (1:16:12) Yep, and we'll have that link,

Kasey McDonald (1:16:13) Fantastic.

Peter Schravemade (1:16:14) we'll have that link on our episodes, so if anyone wants to go there they can they can click on that. Sarah Cincotta, thank you so much for joining us on your Friday and wishing you the best for the weekend coming.

Sarah Cincotta (1:16:25) Thanks guys, great to see you.

Kasey McDonald (1:16:27) Thank you, you too.

Peter Schravemade (1:16:28) Same. That was Sarah Cincotta, some great tips, you know, if you're a landlord there and some really good information about the Victorian rental market and probably from a property manager's perspective how you deal with that. So a big thank you to Sarah for jumping on the show with us Friday and and letting us know that. But to for those of you who are with us today, I guess we've had, you know, the story about the REA, we've had the South Australian agents under scrutiny, we've had some strata bosses in trouble, Queensland agents. Not doing the right thing and some in information there and we've all obviously talked about the extra eight years and the plight of the landlord and of course Sarah for closing it out. Kasey, what a week. You know, we're we're heading into the weekend. What what have you got for the weekend?

Kasey McDonald (1:17:15) Well, you know, it's spring. The pool cover's about to come off, Pete. It's getting warmer here in Queensland. So I think it's what do we call it? Spring cleaning weekend. I'm sure the kids are gonna love it, right? But hey, I say, well,

Peter Schravemade (1:17:25) Yeah, yeah, it sounds

Kasey McDonald (1:17:29) we've got to get it ready. Pool cover off. You're gonna, if you wanna enjoy it, we've got to all get in and get it ready. Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (1:17:35) Yeah, and I guess I'll I'll be I'll be back in Queensland next weekend looking forward to coming home. Look if you're an agent you're out there on the weekend, we wish you all the best as we do every weekend. If you're a first time listener, it'd be great to subscribe. It's all on the week on the the beforetheweekend.com. You can send us an i in an email at hello at Before the Weekend. But thank you so much for being with us another week. Kasey, I'll I'll be seeing you back in Australia I suppose in a week's time. But

Kasey McDonald (1:18:02) Yes. Safe travels.

Peter Schravemade (1:18:02) thank you for joining me for yet another episode and we've got episode twenty on the way. But that's a wrap for this week. Thanks for being with us.

Kasey McDonald (1:18:10) Yep. Have a happy weekend, everyone.