Leadership, Legacy and the Future of Real Estate

Peter Schravemade (00:05)

guys, my name's Pete Shrabmade. I'm with the before the weekend.com podcast. It's definitely not the weekend now, it's Monday. Monday the 25th of May. I'm at the Loose Face. Which is

If you're unaware, the meeting ground right across from Aric. Aric day two's just finished. And I'm joined by the irrepressible Leanne Pilkington who has her glass of rose. It's all happening. Welcome to the loose moves. Thank you. And welcome to the Before the Weekend podcast. Some quick thoughts on Aric from you.

Leanne Pilkington (00:31)

Class

I love going to events like that. There are going to be great speakers, there's going to be average speakers, there's going to be speakers that you get more out of than others. overall I think it was a really great two days. Totally. Totally. you're just never going to be able to keep everybody happy with that kind of thing.

Peter Schravemade (00:51)

But their opinions, right? Yeah.

That's good feedback

and you thought it was well attended. You were in there.

Leanne Pilkington (01:01)

Very well attended. yesterday,

not so much today. I think there are a lot of very sore heads today, be honest. Apparently I got a bit loose at the cherry bar last night. But yesterday I looked around and I couldn't see an empty seat yesterday. So it was really, yeah, was...

Peter Schravemade (01:15)

Yeah, w there was a influx of Kiwis this time, right?

Leanne Pilkington (01:19)

I

understand there are about a thousand. I mean I'm only hearing, you know.

Peter Schravemade (01:23)

Yeah, I I don't

know, I know.

Leanne Pilkington (01:26)

There's certainly

a lot, so I think that was really smart marketing from...

Peter Schravemade (01:30)

Yeah, yeah.

Well it it filled the hall, right? Yeah it is. if the Aussies don't want to come and the Kiwis do, then yeah.

Leanne Pilkington (01:36)

Yeah,

I mean there were a lot of Aussies there but what I do find is most of the Aussies are first timers or second timers. They're not... Yeah, it was a new group. I did know quite a few people but nowhere near as many as I usually do.

Peter Schravemade (01:44)

Was it?

Yeah,

I had that same feeling. my wife actually commented on it. Normally when I'm walking through I'll get stopped regularly. Yeah, I've seen that this happen to you. And look, this is not a brag tag. quite often I don't enjoy it. I I I need to get

Leanne Pilkington (02:05)

and you need to get to food.

Peter Schravemade (02:06)

Yeah, that's it, yeah.

But it it's it like it's nice to see so many people in one area. But I don't think I had that feeling once here. I I saw a couple of people I knew and it was it was super weird, right? Different, different anyway. I was with you on Thursday night. Thursday night and you took out a gong, you took out an award. I imagine awards are a are not something you go hunting anymore, right?

Leanne Pilkington (02:31)

No, absolutely not. And this one, I've already had the conversation with my team because they always like me to go for the awards because it's really good for brand awareness and so forth. And so I've always done it, but I told my team last year that did. I'm stepping away from the awards. But this one, wasn't, I didn't have to nominate or provide a submission or do anything. I won.

Peter Schravemade (02:55)

You didn't get a choice e in this.

Leanne Pilkington (02:57)

So yeah,

it was the President's Award and what happened last year, I was given...

Peter Schravemade (03:03)

You handed it out last year.

Yeah, I was there. I was there for that.

Leanne Pilkington (03:07)

Yeah,

I did hand it out last year, but at the end of last year when I stepped down from REIA, the Real Estate Institute of New South Wales gave me their President's Award. And the President's Award is basically for leadership and industry impact. And so all of the states do that, and then all of the winners from around the country were at Thursday night, which is the national award that I won.

Peter Schravemade (03:32)

Yeah, and

and I I'd even question one. Like, the y yeah, you got the award, but this is not a a lot of them are for sales, for performance. Yes. this is for also community and industry impact. It is, yeah, that's And so I don't I would argue it's not something you can win. You like I can't set it I could do everything in my power to w to to get it. Yeah. And it still may not be given. No no no. So from that perspective I

Like it's I I actually think it's one of the the top awards. It's like winning the pla the team MVP. Because like, you know, someone else might have won the Brownlow Medal or w what you DALE for Queenslanders, whatever that is. And that that's awarded by people watching on looking on. But this is your industry peers saying you've done a fantastic job. Yeah. And and for whatever area and Jacob Kane's speech was, by the way, phenomenal.

Yeah, yeah, because like some of the things he said in there I was not aware of. Really? And I think I know I I thought I know pretty well. Yeah, I thought I knew I thought I knew you pretty well.

Leanne Pilkington (04:39)

can't even imagine what he said that evening.

Peter Schravemade (04:40)

Yeah,

well it's not coming to mind at the moment, but there were a few things in there. I was going, and she did that and she did that and that it might have been it might have been that it slipped my mind. But you've had a you've had a pretty and without you know going playing the age card, you've had a pretty extended greer. Yeah. so you started out as the receptionist, right? No? Or

Leanne Pilkington (05:01)

I started answering

the phone at my dad's real estate business as a 12 year old on a Sunday. 12 year old. I was very grown up.

Peter Schravemade (05:06)

As a twelve year old. How does it go with a twelve year old answering a phone on a Sunday? How

were you? I mean, can you imagine calling in real estate these days and getting a twelve year old?

Leanne Pilkington (05:19)

Actually my 12 year old niece Mia probably could handle it.

Peter Schravemade (05:23)

I'm sure you I'm sure you could have.

But and then you you just you just

Leanne Pilkington (05:29)

I basically finished high school, I was going to become a teacher and my dad asked me to work for him for a period of time, like until teachers college, uni went back. so I did that and I decided not to go into teaching. decided I never wanted to be a real estate agent. So I studied valuation.

Peter Schravemade (05:50)

Me too. I never did either.

Leanne Pilkington (05:52)

So

I became a valuer, which is pretty hilarious given numbers are not really my thing and valuers are not really people.

Peter Schravemade (06:02)

Yeah, well no one

seems to like them very much. Like and and I I get it. Like if if if it's a real estate agent you're you're trying to hold the line. Yeah. if it's the bank you're probably too high. Yeah. You know, it's like a property manager's job. There's like there's not a lot of wins there, you know.

Leanne Pilkington (06:19)

Yeah, so anyway that's how I got into it.

Peter Schravemade (06:23)

When the award when you got the award, does that make you reflect on a career?

Leanne Pilkington (06:30)

Yeah, it makes me really proud because I have done a lot. I never intended to have the profile that I had. None of this was a master strategic plan. I got into working with the Institute, got onto the board because as a franchisor, I had people coming up to me saying, I'd like to open a real estate business and I'd go, great.

Tell me about your real estate experience. I've got my license but I don't have any experience. I've been a franchise, I've had a 7-11 franchise. Alright, I've got an accounting business. But you've got your license and you can open a business. And that never sat well with me. The erosion of the educational standards in the industry really bothered me. And so rather than being on the sidelines and complaining about it, I decided to do something about it and joining the board was my way.

lobby government and so on.

Peter Schravemade (07:29)

And the changes that you've seen coming in like maybe not from when you were twelve, but but shortly after that, all the way through to now, are they for the better?

Leanne Pilkington (07:41)

Some

are and some are not. So our industry standards in New South Wales specifically because of course every it's different around the country But in New South Wales we've gone back to the way it used to be so when I got my license It took me four years to get my real estate license And you had to have a certain level of experience before you could get your class one and all that and then all of that was eroded completely in the name of competition

Peter Schravemade (07:49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leanne Pilkington (08:11)

we've bought it back. So some of those changes are great. I think some of them are problematic for property managers, for example. We've got a lot of older, particularly mums, in property management that don't have time to do their real estate licence. And so they're being forced to exit the industry because they can't stay without their licence. So I think there's some problems. But it's not easy to navigate these changes with government. They just don't make it easy.

Peter Schravemade (08:35)

No, and g and government like have you ever seen a time in your career where government is using as many wedges between real estate and and the consumer, whether that be the tenant, the landlord, whoever it may be.

Leanne Pilkington (08:49)

Well, the government

don't consider the landlord as a consumer, for a start.

Peter Schravemade (08:53)

yeah, well yeah, right. So yeah because the landlord group is dy is a dying group in our opinion and the tenant is

Leanne Pilkington (09:04)

No,

they've got too much control and too much, I guess, much money, right? I don't know how the budget changes are going to impact our investment pool moving forward. think it's going to be really, really challenging.

Peter Schravemade (09:21)

What's intra interesting because I've spoken to a few people about that. Tim Lawless been one of them and he he had some interesting insights on it. You know he's tipping a f perhaps the biggest downgraded property in forty years on the back of it and so he was it was it it was interesting but I'll let you listen to that. That's another interview that's another interview. That's another another interview. a lot of your involvement by default or ma maybe not by default but by choice has been women's leadership initiatives. Like you've

been a pretty big champion for women's roles in lead in in in real estate. Yeah. how do you feel we are sitting today now? Like I've heard you tell some stories when you joined. I'm hoping we are better, but what what's your take on it?

Leanne Pilkington (10:07)

There

is no doubt that we are better than we were, but we've still got a long way to go. And it was by default. avoided women's events for very long time. Because when I was selling real estate, I started selling real estate at 18. There were no women other than my mum in the Hills District where I was. And I had to play with the boys. I used to drink with the boys. I used to party with the boys. I used to just be one of the boys. And that was the way.

that I got through it by not trying to, by trying to fit in rather than stand out. And then I had some women working for me in sort of 2012, 13, 14, and they kept nagging me about, you Lee, you've got a great list of contacts. We would love to be able to meet some of the people that you know and we'd love to do a women's event, yada yada.

I said, alright, let me see if there's any interest. I sent an email to about a dozen women that I knew that had teams of women and said, do think it's a good idea if we get together for networking and some bubbles? And they said, yeah sure. Two weeks later, we'd sold out a 65 person event in Sydney and I can still remember standing there going...

I don't even know what exactly we're doing here. But obviously it's needed. And that's how Real Women in Real Estate started. And for a number of years I was doing events around the country. I did nearly 100 events around Australia with groups of women. And we just had one on Saturday night and you're an honorary girl and you come to Walla...

Peter Schravemade (11:45)

Yeah, well I I was at obviously a at that event the other night and I saw the report that Jackie Barnes released. But the one thing that got me about that room and Jackie Barnes report, like sh i in in that report it spoke about a lot of the people who filled out the survey had been in the industry longer than seven years, which is quite extensive, like that's a long time. And I looked around that room on the weekend and or a coup two days ago and I noted that a lot of them are

are really influential, are really dominant in their industries, they're really strong. Like you you don't have a room there of women who are downcast or downplayed that really

Leanne Pilkington (12:27)

There's some really good women.

Peter Schravemade (12:28)

Amazing performers in that room, so you know, well done. And I I've only kinda kinda come on on the tail end of that, I feel. I'm only looking at the sample of what is today. I can't talk about what became before. But I did have a really good chat at New South Wales Wire event with Christine Castle. yeah. And she told me she started that event because when she did well in real estate, her boss used to give her a voucher and send her to shop in Sydney.

Leanne Pilkington (12:47)

you

Peter Schravemade (12:59)

I I was like, what? That actually that actually happened. And she's like, it it didn't just happen to me. What I said is I gathered a group of women together and I said, let's come together rather than do this shopping.

Leanne Pilkington (13:11)

They

used to do both and actually it's the REIMSW Women in Real Estate 20 year anniversary in 2027. my plan is, and Christine doesn't know it yet, but if she hears this podcast she'll hear, I do plan to get her on stage and have that conversation with her. Great story.

Peter Schravemade (13:27)

Yeah was that was

a it was an amazing conversation. Yeah I just was lucky enough to sit next to her. Yeah right. so moving forward because like I I get the feeling that your job is not done here.

Leanne Pilkington (13:41)

In what way?

Peter Schravemade (13:44)

I don't think you're gonna roll over tomorrow and stop. Like I I I think there might be a part of you that wants to wind down. Not really I you know, I was trying to reconcile like because I I don't think you can.

Leanne Pilkington (13:47)

No.

Yeah, well...

Peter Schravemade (14:00)

you know how I see some people retire and and then you'll probably have lifestyle changes, right? You might travel more or do these fun things. But what's what's next for Lillian Pilkington? What's what's I know I know you've already got the Langan Simmons theme.

Leanne Pilkington (14:14)

do. Yep. And honestly, I actually feel sorry for people that are really looking forward to retirement, because I think it means they haven't found a job that they love. So I guess I'm in a privileged position where as a business owner and a CEO, I can control my time. So if I feel like I want to travel a bit more this year, can. But so what's next? I finished at REI.

Peter Schravemade (14:24)

Well that's a very good point.

Leanne Pilkington (14:43)

to Australia, stepped out of the business in November and I joined another board, an organization called Head Start Homes. And that's all about helping people move out of social housing into buying their first It's an incredible organization. They've got a five million dollar grant in Wollongong, so they're building and buying property in Wollongong at the moment. And we're hoping that that model will be able to be replicated.

with other councils. I'm very excited about that. yeah, giving back in those sorts of ways, I will always do I think.

Peter Schravemade (15:13)

I'm very

Is there anything like that worries you about the Australian industry, real estate industry moving into the future? Like well in point form.

Leanne Pilkington (15:34)

I got massively, I mean there's been a lot of high profile bad behaviour cases and without going into too much detail.

Peter Schravemade (15:40)

Still still persist. We

we try to highlight on the podcast we've been trying to highlight that it's happening, but not actually talk about the people. No, exactly.

Leanne Pilkington (15:55)

No,

completely agree. But what has frustrated me was that for many years I've been reporting the behaviour or some of the behaviour to Fair Trading. And whilst the guys at Fair Trading are doing the best they can at the moment, and I've got great relationships, there's some really good people in there, and there it's frustrating to die at with some of the outcomes. So that worries me.

Peter Schravemade (16:18)

Mm.

Me too. Yeah. Yeah, that that's a big one. We spoke about that in episode one, yeah. Where we felt that a particularly high profile one that I know you you were more across than I was in New South Wales. I I really felt the industry had let us down as a whole, like there were franchises involved in that, there were influencers and coaches involved in that, and and they knew, I know they knew, and and yet turned a blind eye. And and I I really had issues. I took

Leanne Pilkington (16:48)

Well,

and I was, because I was president at that time, I was taking phone calls from consumers. know, single mums who had been literally conned out of a significant amount of money and there was nothing I could do. With all of the, you I've got direct contacts with the people who should be able to make a difference and they, those people were failed in my view.

Peter Schravemade (16:53)

Yeah, I bet you would.

Yeah. And yeah, okay, that's a really that's a really big one. Yeah.

Leanne Pilkington (17:17)

Yeah,

and I also think that there's a lot of people coming into the industry right now that have a sense of entitlement.

I'm not necessarily hustle and grind, work seven days a week, although when I started, I did work seven days a week and I was studying three nights a week. So I would drive from the Hills District into the city before the M2, that's how long I was. And I would do that three nights a week and I did that for four years. So I think you've got to be prepared to work hard to get the momentum to then have a bit more freedom.

Peter Schravemade (17:58)

I would I I'd argue that in any industry. Like I'm in I'm in I'm in the tech industry and the people I I see don't succeed are probably the ones that are not putting the effort in at the start. Yeah. Who have a sense of entitlement. They walk in and they go, you know, I've I've come from Google or whatever and that's a badge that I wear and therefore. Yeah. Yeah. not trying to take the piss out of anyone that's worked at Google, that's a

Leanne Pilkington (18:21)

Incredible world in my

picture.

Peter Schravemade (18:23)

why

I I I thought I'd ask on the back of JB's Jackie Barnes report, the report that she put You're you're a contributor to that, were you not? You've got your f headshot in it. So I hope you absolutely are. I hope you were yeah

One of the the things that came out of the report was the stat that in the first one to two years, it I can't remember what the stat was, but a a remarkable amount of, I think it's 30 something percent of women depart the industry in there. And she had highlighted that it wasn't necessarily a lack of will on their behalf that she was citing the environment that they were placed into. What advice do you have for women entering the industry today?

Leanne Pilkington (19:06)

You know what I think

the advice is more for the business owners than for the women because the business owners really need to understand that giving women flexibility it doesn't mean that they're not working because they're picking their kids up at 2.30 or 3 o'clock. They can do a lot of networking at the school gate because that's what they do. But if you can give people, and it's not just women, but if you can give people the flexibility that they need to have their life then you're going to get repayed.

Peter Schravemade (19:23)

Yeah yeah yeah.

Leanne Pilkington (19:35)

with loyalty and hopefully results if you've got the right people. mean, unfortunately, there's some people that would take advantage of the situation that we're in for everybody. But if you're a, my team are all remote. And I manage them on an outcomes basis. So I don't micromanage their activity, but I know what outcomes they need to achieve this week. And that's what I expect from them.

Peter Schravemade (20:04)

Jino I had a thought on that post the report. and a lot of a lot of the the the issues I see in the first two years stem from the choice of agency that a person is put into. Yeah.

Leanne Pilkington (20:19)

Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (20:20)

So recently I had a very good friend of mine, a male, who's my age, so 48, full disclosure, 48 years old. He went to primary school and secondary school with me and he just started with the wrong agency. There's there's no other way I can put it. Yep. He started with the wrong agency, he was thrust into a model that didn't work for him. Yeah. we found him another agency, we put him into that. He's thriving, you know, he's he's making he's doing everything required of him. The business owner is delighted.

Now, interestingly, he applied for the job at the agency he's now in but didn't get into it previously. It was only when I had a word with them and they said, look, you think you've missed a trick here. yeah. So you know, it got me thinking because like I I suspect there's a lot yes, l let's not dismiss the environment and the the managerial duties of actually making sure that your incoming staff member can flourish, but one of the issues that I I think

advice I would give to somebody entering the industry is think long and hard about the agency that you're gonna join. Don't necessarily look at how they appear to the the consumer because we're really good at fudging that shit. Like we we can I can make myself look amazing.

Leanne Pilkington (21:38)

I had

that conversation, I won't mention the brands, but a girlfriend of mine worked for two really high profile brands and she said, you know what, and I was surprised where she left the really beautiful looking brand to go to what I thought was a bit of a daggy brand. That's a pretty daggy word actually, anyway, know what mean? she said no, one looks like a Porsche on the outside, but it's just like a rusted out old bucket.

and the other one is the other way around. It looks really old fashioned but their tech, their systems, their leadership is in...

Peter Schravemade (22:13)

And you I

would argue you can work with the latter better than

Leanne Pilkington (22:17)

Yeah, totally, because

the other, the outside, and that business ultimately did rebrand and they look like a completely different business.

Peter Schravemade (22:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly the same. So I actually might suggest that to J B as being something to look at as well. How how much does the agency affect the tenure in the real estate? Yeah, yeah. There's so there's so many questions that came out of that report for me. Yeah, she sparked the conversation. But anyway this is not JB's report.

Leanne Pilkington (22:44)

Damn it,

she's got her own.

Peter Schravemade (22:46)

Well let me talk. I I've got one more question for you, or one more thing to throw at you. What does legacy look like for Leanne Pilkington and do you care? Does it matter? Like

Leanne Pilkington (22:59)

You know, that's a really interesting question about legacy because the reality is all of us are going to be forgotten within two or three generations. I mean, that's just reality. I don't have kids so...

Peter Schravemade (23:13)

Yep, I won't be here, you won't be here. Are you gonna

be you know, I was at the REIB recently and they had all these e all of these ex presidents' heads on the wall. Yeah. As I'm sure they do at every other. But I was just sitting there going, I I don't know any of those people. What did they do to impact where where I'm at?

Leanne Pilkington (23:32)

Yeah. I think that if I can, I think my legacy is really inspiring other people to do good work, And so if I've got an incredible team around me at Lang and Simmons, and if I can inspire them to do great work, and then they in turn inspire the next generation coming up, I think that's probably the best legacy I could ever hope for.

Peter Schravemade (23:55)

Yeah, well

I I would argue that the start of a legacy is probably the receipt of an REIA president's award. If I if I could be honest, that you know, I look at we're in an industry where we have awards when people don't even have a prize. You know, that one is not that. That is not that. And it's sometimes it's really hard to decipher the noise, so so from me to you, you've killed it. Well done, congratulations. I'm I'm super proud just having met you in a pool in Las Vegas, which is a story

Yeah, but you know moving on from there, what I've learned about you and what the impact that you've had on the industry, you should be exceptionally proud of what you've done. So congratulations on that. Thank you for joining our Before the Weekend podcast. well I'll take you up on that. Be careful what you wish to learn. Thanks Lee and cheers.

Leanne Pilkington (24:26)

story.