eXp Australia, One Third of Nothing and 90 Seconds Outside the Car

Episode 20, and how to catch up if you're behind

Peter Schravemade (00:05) It is Friday, twenty-fifth of September. and this is our twentieth episode. Can you believe that? We're at twenty episodes already. I am well happy to welcome you to Before the Weekend if you're a longtime listener or a first time listener, both welcome. I'm joined here by my partner in crime, Kasey McDonald, all the way from Brisbane. Kasey, how are you? How has your week been?

Kasey McDonald (00:28) Yeah, great. Thank you. super busy travelling. I've been back down into Sydney again. doing some really awesome think tanks in the PM space. So diving in deep to understand, you know, what really are their pain points, you know, what's affecting them actually in their day to day role. So it was really great actually. great, great few days. and yeah, but Can't believe we are actually at episode 20. I did have someone during the week say, I love listening to you guys, but I'm a few episodes behind. Kasey, can you just give me a bit of a, you know, a wrap of where where I should catch up on? And I said, No, I can't. There's too much to tell you. You gotta, you gotta get on and listen.

Peter Schravemade (01:13) Yeah, no. Well, I mean, the episodes are always there and the transcripts are on the website. So she's more than welcome to drop them into AI and see what we discussed. And that would be the easiest way. but we do have an action week, action packed week ahead of us. I mean, it has been a little bit quiet in the news as far as what we think news is you know, relevant to the property professional. But we've we've got quite a few things to discuss here today. Obviously, You know, first of all, there's rates. And l look honestly, I don't I don't want to talk too much about this because I think it's covered mostly in the mainstream media, right? I'd it's worth a mention that everyone seems to think that rates are going to go up this week. I I don't think there's anyone saying the opposite, although the interesting article that you forwarded it to me was Kochie, old good old David Koch is is pointing the blame directly at the the parliament, saying it's excessive spending is as a result that that's what's causing the interest rates to go up. So, you know, I I think we've heard a bit of disquiet on this on this front and it's getting louder. the

Rates: the RBA, David Koch and who actually pays for government spending

Peter Schravemade (02:24) Reserve Bank Governor, I don't I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Michelle Bullock came out this week and she doesn't really throw stones at the government. She's very careful, but she she pretty much pointed at excessive spending and said if there were less spending we wouldn't have in interest rates rise. You know, so we've got that in David Koch, I don't know if you've got a thought on that, but that seems to be the general gist of interest rates going up at the moment.

Kasey McDonald (02:49) Yeah, and I think all one key point out of that is of course the the tax that is coming on what the the government spending is us, right? As the income earners actually also paying

Peter Schravemade (03:00) Yep. Yeah, we're paying for it.

Kasey McDonald (03:02) That, right? So yeah, I think he he made some really valid points in the article. But yeah, he he was certainly very also cautious of saying this is not her doing. She's obviously now been put in a position where she's got to make these decisions, but he's just saying, you know. G get in, investigate it, actually dive into where the government is spending and stop just thinking that it is the households, because if you actually look at it, the households I think only grew like 0.4% compared to where that govern the government's spending I think has peaked higher than nineteen ninety or something, nineteen eighty nine spending in terms of where our budget is. So yeah, he's just saying dive in, take a look.

Peter Schravemade (03:45) Well I think well I think the I think the other point would be we need we need something else other than interest rates as a handbrake on the economy. Like we can't it like what what

Kasey McDonald (03:54) Yeah. Well it's not working, right? Like I don't think it's working.

Peter Schravemade (03:57) And how how is it fair? Like we landlords couple is is bad and and owners couple of this bad press at the moment because how dare they dare to dream and own a house. But the reality is like who You know, who who is it that's responsible? Every time the government overspends, they the interest rates go up. And anyone holding a a property, I mean, I I think this has been in the back of first home buyers' minds for a while. Like I know some people personally close to me who have not purchased a property because they don't like the idea of the government raising interest rates on a whim. And it's not the government, it's the Reserve Bank of Australia. But according to the conditions.

Peter Schravemade (04:39) The the the interest rates can get raised on a whim and they can be left paying excess money and they didn't want that uncertainty. Now I'm sure, you know, this is a conversation I had 10 years ago. I'm sure now after the pandemic and rents rising that they regret that conversation. But that that is indeed, that was indeed some people's concerns around buying a house. And it's terrible to think that you know some people haven't gotten into the market just because they of the uncertainty of interest rate rises and what they can do. I remember there was a period where they were they were stupidly high. I think when we bought bought our first property, our interest rate, our bank assigned interest rate was seventeen percent. So that's you know, like most people would would not even consider buying a house when it was that high. And and yeah, anyway, I I don't know I don't know where to go with that, but we're expecting another rise. And I suppose the other bad news for if you're a homeowner is there's another one expected before the end of the year.

Kasey McDonald (05:38) Yeah. Yeah, they're definitely saying two coming right, September and November, I think.

Peter Schravemade (05:39) So it's a case of how much and when. Yeah, I think I think that was the the the key. let's move on because like I won't dwell on that. I'm waiting for the draft, the the barrage of every single real estate agent that's on in my social media feed to go, interest rates have risen today. I'm like, my God. Guys, pick something out that's interesting about it. Stop, don't just put the new anyway. What do I know?

Kasey McDonald (06:03) Yeah. The same news article up. Yeah.

eXp Australia terminates the Class 2 pathway - what we know and what we don't

Peter Schravemade (06:06) Yeah, look, this next article, this is not new one. it got it got bumped a couple of weeks ago. I had seen this, it crossed my desk. It got bumped because there were more pressing topics to discuss in those particular weeks. But I saw this one come through. It there's been three social media posts I know of. two of them really just complaining about a change. And the third is I think. Putting into words why they're so frustrated. And the crux of the matter is it appears as though eXp the franchise eXp, who has eXp Australia. So there's eXp Global and there's eXp USA. they're here in Australia, they're known as eXp Australia. And and quite a dominant franchise in the last decade, if I'm honest, they grew really, really quickly under. Under the former CEO, and they seem to have levelled out now. There are other companies in America like Real and were really particular, taking away a lot of market share of what eXp is. But eXp was born out of Keller Williams salespersons who who really felt that they couldn't grow beyond a single office. And the franchise worked, it's an interesting model. Lots of people refer to it as multi-level marketing. I'm here to tell you they don't like.

Peter Schravemade (07:29) That term. They really dis dislike the multi level marketing term. But the what the way it works is let's say I I want to go out and start an eXp franchise here in Australia. I would be the principal if you like. And then under me, I can have what are classed as tier two salespersons. So Kasey, I could be very persuasive and convince you to come and sell under underneath my eXp group. and then I'm gonna have another ring. Like there might be another 10 Kaseys in there. And then those Kaseys might go out and they might recruit people also in tier two underneath them. And that this forms this, and this is why it's referred to as multi level marketing, is that this chain or daisy chain can go on for quite some time. but what has happened recently, and again, I've I've requested feedback from Chris Janzon, who's the director of eXp Australia. I haven't given him a lot of time to respond to that. So

Peter Schravemade (08:25) I'm hoping he'll come back to me in the week and we might be able to get him on next week. But what appears to have happened is those Class 2 or tier two or whatever you want to refer to them, Class 2 agents, were told that that the this is a model that wouldn't be continuing. And so,

Kasey McDonald (08:41) Okay.

Peter Schravemade (08:42) Like it's it's it it is a big deal for some of the agents out there. Now, now in if if this is true, it's a big deal. Let's go with that. But I put it out to several agents and They seem to know about it, but they were unconcerned. So these agents in particular, the ones that I spoke to, they run their own business. Like let's say it's it's you, Kasey, or let's say it's me and you as a as a duo. it'd be Pete and Kasey's fantastic real estate sales. Well, I mean, what a what a dream team that would be, but but it it'd be that it'd be that sales office and powered by eXp or something like that. That's not going to change. You and I are likely to have licences and we're not We're not deemed as Class 2. We would be subcontractors to eXp, right? But

Peter Schravemade (09:29) If we ever wanted to put somebody on underneath us, they might be Class 2. I mean they could be subcontracted as well. They might need their own licence. But for whatever reason, the the the Class 2 agent is no longer there. So most independent contractors aren't going to have a have a problem with it. Like I spoke to a bunch of them and they said, look, this really doesn't affect us. We're not, we're not concerned at all. However, there are some Massive recruiters out there. Like one of the big buzz the the buzz phrases about eXp is that you can start your own team and you can get this passive income. And so I do know a lot of influencers from yesteryear. I don't even know if they're still operating anymore, but they came out sort of five years ago when eXp came to the to Australia and said, you know, we're going to be dominant. They they lodged all these recruitment drives. a lot of them were outspoken. Those guys pretty much can't exist in that format anymore. They would have to

Kasey McDonald (10:25) Right.

Who it hurts: independent contractors versus the recruiters

Peter Schravemade (10:26) If if this is correct, they would have to get everyone as a licensed agent. And I think that kinda sours the deal a bit. wha what do you think? Do you know do you know anything about this side?

Kasey McDonald (10:36) No, actually. So the yeah, I do find this interesting because, you know, I think that it was such a popular model from when they obviously launched in Australia. in I think correct, right? And I think it was,

Peter Schravemade (10:47) Well, you and I knew it from the US, like when we were travelling in the US.

Kasey McDonald (10:51) You know, learning about what that model was over there. And then they brought it here to Australia. And I, you know, I certainly did see that they had significant growth when they first launched here. so so what now we're saying is that that I guess that Class 2 or or that really like that employee pathway is now just being removed. Is that right? Like that's that's pretty

Peter Schravemade (11:14) Yeah, that's the and that's the hard part.

Kasey McDonald (11:17) Much the the the crux of this. It's it's so if it was you and I, it's basically just saying that it needs to remain now just you and I. We can't have others yeah.

Peter Schravemade (11:25) Yep. we could we could put another person on, but they'd have to be their own legal entity. you know, is my guess. And they'd

Kasey McDonald (11:31) Oh, right, yeah.

Peter Schravemade (11:32) Have to have that they'd have to have a full licence and all of the things that come with it.

Kasey McDonald (11:34) So is that potentially being changed because of some of those I guess payment or payroll implications around how you're paying commission only, sales agents and those types of things? Do we think that that's also maybe why? Okay.

Peter Schravemade (11:49) N not not clear. Like the reason we're the reason we're talking about this, Kasey, is that it's appeared on three social media posts now that I'm aware of. There's been no mainstream news. There's been no there's been no press release from eXp Australia or eXp Global on this. We don't even know if it's correct at this stage. So I, you know, I should preface it with that. But a lot of the agents I've spoken to have admitted that this is actually happening and they know about it. but what w you know, we haven't seen anything official. My my gut instinct says that it's increased regulation that's come in that's forced their hand on this, but I don't really know. And and then the the the other side of this is the one that's been pleaded on social media is like, why would you ever start a franchise with a a publicly listed group who could who had this power to take away one whole branch of your potential growth

Peter Schravemade (12:46) So you know, I'd be interested and I've I've sent that email off. So hopefully we get a response from eXp Australia and they can come in and tell us what we're missing here as part of this story. But it's not a it's not a good look at the moment. It's not a good look. I I already think eXp were trying to recover from their the original expansion. most of the people I speak to in the in the industry said that it had a terrible start here in Australia. no one's really willing to phrase why that is, but you know, in I know plenty of really, really good independent contractors who are under the eXp brand who love it. They love the freedom. So, you know, I to me, it's just another franchise. but you know, it might be worth if if you're going if you're considering going into it for that reason, you might need to ask the question up front to to ensure there's no you know. miscommunication of the on the back end.

Right of reply to eXp Australia, and hello@beforetheweekend.com if you know more

Kasey McDonald (13:46) Yeah. I guess well, yeah, hopefully we can learn more about this. Pete. we'll see, you know, whether or not we can get someone from eXp to certainly

Peter Schravemade (13:52) Yeah, well or or Yeah. If

Kasey McDonald (13:55) Clarify this for us. But yeah, something for us to watch, right? Or those saves. Yeah, if absolutely let us know for sure.

Peter Schravemade (13:58) Yeah, if you know something about it, yeah. Yep, send us an email. hello@beforetheweekend.com. We'd love to hear from you just to find out what's going on here. like it it seems it seems odd. There's something quite not quite right about it. But you know, and that I've I've heard all of the eXp haters. I'm not I'm not with them. I've seen the eXp engine. I think I was at the first six E eXp con conferences and I was like I'm on the public record as being personally refle refreshed by a lot of the things that they brought to their conference that were just outstanding. So certainly not a franchise attack here, just trying to find the you know, where where the actual facts are here in the absence of anything sitting in the public record other than social media posts. So yeah, if you're listening to it and you know something about it, come back and let us know.

Queensland landlords' $593 million black hole

Kasey McDonald (14:49) Amazing. let's move on to our next story. we've got here that Queensland landlords are going to be about 593 mil in the black hole. mass property sell-off. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (15:04) What kind of black hole is that, Kasey? Sounds terrible.

Kasey McDonald (15:08) Yeah, it does, right? so we're talking and referencing here from an article, a few articles actually that have been sort of released that have we've sort of pulled together. and it obviously brings around you know, the the property sell-off, right? And we certainly heard as well last week with Sarah Cincotta sharing that many Victorian investors are in fact selling because of some of these changes. but yeah, there's been an article through realestate.com today you this week that it certainly indicates that there should there could be a mass property sell-off for Queensland landlords. Five hundred and ninety three million in the black hole. So yeah. So what what's your take on this and you know, what's your interpretation?

Peter Schravemade (15:53) Yeah, I struggle to believe it at first, but the the the premise that they're doing this on, yeah, I think all of the the the articles are pointing to people who are currently negatively geared will attempt to sell those properties in the next twelve months. That that's that's what they're that's where they're going. And they're saying that there's potentially five hundred and ninety three million of them. I'm not so sure that all of those will choose to sell in the next year, but I might be wrong.

Kasey McDonald (16:21) Do you think that with some of those capital gains tax changes, and we all knowing that as of, you know, 30th of June or the first of July next year, that that valuation play isn't going to come in right? do we think that that's also probably forming some of these? Like, is that an angle that we

Peter Schravemade (16:38) Well I think that's

Kasey McDonald (16:39) Think is kind of coming as a part of this where they are looking at it thinking, well, one, do I have the cash flow to maybe potentially do this and get the best capitalised value? For my home at that particular point in

Peter Schravemade (16:50) I I think I

Kasey McDonald (16:51) Time.

Peter Schravemade (16:52) Yeah, I think I think that's their point. I think they're saying that they are the changes. But I'm kind of I'm kind of questioning that a little bit. Like, how far wrong do you have to have gone with your established property at the moment for it to have been still negatively geared? you know, we're in a we're in a scenario here where rents are higher than they've ever been before. So if you've held a house for five years, let's say you purchase one five years ago. You must have bought it in, you know, the regional regional outpost of Mount Isa. hello to all the Mount Isa folks out there. But you must have bought it somewhere like that for it to not be positive cash flow or at least close to being positively geared at this stage. Because I like I don't, you know, as someone who invests, I can't I can't currently understand that unless they're bought in a particularly bad area and that that that

How do you still have a negatively geared property in 2026?

Peter Schravemade (17:47) Five hundred and ninety-three million. you know, that that sounds crazy, but you know, I'm well aware that there are still people who have negatively geared. It was a it was a pretty much a tax. It was a we were doing this for taxation per it was a tax minimisation strategy, if you want to call it that. But they've all been grandfathered anyway. So why are those people wanting to sell? I don't I don't Yeah, there's a lot I don't I don't really understand about this. And I notice in in here they're also quoting PIPA as saying that 35.5% of Queensland investors sold at least one property in the last 12 months. Well, that's that's not related to this. that's not related. Like the last 12 months is not anything as a result of the tax change. So I, you know, probably more what I'd take out of this is where Sarah was last week, where she was saying that.

Peter Schravemade (18:41) People who ha are negatively geared on your rent roll are at high risk of being attrition from that rent roll. So the the biggest thing I'd be recommending to principals at the moment is to be looking at your rent roll and having a look at the the amount of those who are or maybe negatively geared. And again, again, this comes back to Zapiio. Zapiio does this, it analyses the portfolio of your rent roll and goes, here are the ones that might be at at risk. We spoke about them last week. We've talked about them four episodes ago. They would do this. They would let you know which ones are at risk. And as Sarah was saying last week, it might be time to actually get in their ears and say, Look, here are s can we provide you with some options based on this? I don't know. What are your thoughts?

Kasey: you're not a landlord's PM, you're an investor's trusted advisor

Kasey McDonald (19:24) Yeah, look, I agree. I I think you we kind of keep you know, banging on a little, you know, some of us trainers consultants and those that have been around in the industry for a long time, but we keep talking about that the property manager, it's you're not a property manager. I mean, you are, you're managing a property, and then there's a tenancy that's related and there's a relationship with the owner. But at the end of the day, you're there to be that trusted advisor to help support the investor. So it's all about the change in the language. you know, they're not a landlord. you know, they're actually an investor. And that's we've got to start treating them like that. So I think, you know, for those property managers who are listening, it's really now time to actually sit back and and have the meetings with your principals to actually understand what types of properties have we got within our portfolio? You know, what are our fee schedules? You know, I'm still seeing in the market these two and three percent fee agencies coming to the table.

Kasey McDonald (20:23) And many, you know, just choosing that we're going to go for this cheaper option, but what in fact are you actually getting? So I think sit down, analyse it, audit your rent roll. you know, look at ways in which you can be bringing and surfacing data to the forefront. Use the suppliers out there like Zapiio to do an audit of your of your business and then start analysing how in which we can have better conversations because they so they might not actually need to sell. It's just that you've not presented them. Other options or different solutions for them to consider in the process. And that's actually what the investor is looking for. They just don't want you to call

Peter Schravemade (20:59) Yeah, and probably rega

Kasey McDonald (21:00) All the time to say there's maintenance, you need to spend money, and the tenant's in arrears. And so because there's so much noise and there's so much negativity already, we've got to be the, I guess, you know, positive light in those conversations to say it's actually not all that bad, right? Here's exactly how much growth you've had in your property. Here's exactly how much we've been able to increase your rental yield and reduce your expenses over this last, you know, two years. and whilst there might be still some things that we absolutely need to do to get your property to this kind of standard, but here's the way in which we can actually do it and do it together over the next 12 months to avoid you needing to sell. That's what they're looking for in your conversation.

Peter Schravemade (21:41) Yeah. And regardless of what the news is, I I would be advocating having these conversations anyway. It's just as a protectionism for your rent roll. So you you know, you're not experiencing unnecessary churn. That's doesn't seem difficult to me, but yeah, it's it's certainly worth doing it. let's move on to and the links to those articles, by the way, from that previous story I'll have they'll be underneath the episode at beforetheweekend.com. If you go there. this one this one made me laugh.

RentBetter says a third of rentals have no agent

Kasey McDonald (22:10) Yeah. Okay. Talk me through it, Pete.

Peter Schravemade (22:11) I think every every year, every year, it I don't think it was meant to be a comedy, but it it turned out to be one. Every year I get people pitching products at me in my capacity with my my REACH Australia New Zealand hat on that say that they're gonna remove the agent from the transaction in one one shape, way, shape, or form. The hardest area, I think, if if I'm honest, if I look at the market, the hardest area that I think It would be to remove a property professional from the transaction right now, involuntarily, would be in property management. I I firmly believe there is not a more difficult space at the moment. And and as somebody who's managed properties before, and I'm sure you're the same, there is absolutely no way I would take that on by myself. I would, I would throw that to a professional every day of the week, and I do, and and and I'm happy to pay them.

Peter Schravemade (23:06) I don't argue when the with with their fees. And I'm sure my my current property managers are listening to this. I know they've sent me feedback before. I do not argue when they when they give me their fees because I know what they do. I know what they have to keep on top of in order to understand, you know, and at the moment in the current environment, you know, we had a Aaron Barber on last week and he said there had been five hundred changes to the to regulation. In the previous 12 months that affected property managers, which is just insane. But we have this guy in Sydney. Now, let me get his name here. Someone Goldschmidt. Jeremy Goldschmidt, who runs a company called, well, do we say them? I may as well say them. They're called RentBetter, which is a bit of a dig. And you so you gotta understand these RentBetter guys, they are trying to get the they're trying to remove the property manager from the transaction and go.

Peter Schravemade (24:04) Landlord to tenant, which I I cannot think of anything worse in this current environment. It would just be diabolical if you actually went down that. But anyway, this guy's come out with a news article this week and and there's some of the claims that were made in it were like I was I was pissing myself laughing. So RentBetter, Sydney self-management platform founded in 2016-2018. they raise money. They raise more money this week. So To date, they've never disclosed a property count, which I find hilarious. So how many, how many properties do they have on their on their books would be an amazing that would be an amazing thing to r to let's say that that was 50,000. Holy moly, can you imagine the story around that? Everyone had come running. They have a they have a rent rent roll on their books of fifty thousand. But he said this week about one third, one third, that's one third. of Australia's two point two million residential rentals are now being leased out without a real estate agent. Now, Kasey, you've been in this industry well, I'm gonna say just as long as me. How how does that how does that stat ring for you?

Kasey McDonald (25:15) Rather interesting. I'm not sure I'm not sure that there

Peter Schravemade (25:20) Rather interesting. It's

Kasey McDonald (25:22) Is much truth in that statement based on what I know and the people that I get to work with every single day. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (25:30) Yeah, it's it it's defin it's absolute BS. I know where he's got it from. He got it from the he got it from the ABS, the Australian Bureau of Statistics last census in twenty twenty one. And and it says that about thirty percent of the rental market are privately managed. But you gotta you gotta have a look at the ABS stats. Include they include government rentals, so public housing, which is not t technically, they do actually have a professional manager. employed by the government, but that's that's included as not part of it. It has campsites in it, it has aged care facilities, it has all of these other things that aren't part of it. So he's he's gotten that number and gone, one third and it's rising. actually the stats are are lowering even via ABS, the stats are lowering. So completely fabricated, not true, just not even not even in the vicinity. And the reason that we know that Is because here in Queensland, we can go to a Residential Tenancies Authority and find out who is holding the bond. And that that is really where it's at. So if you're,

The RTA numbers: 89 per cent Queensland, 93 per cent NSW

Peter Schravemade (26:32) If you're, you know, if you're a landlord and it's it's privately managed, that bond is held by, you know, it's held by the the RTA for you. If it's not, it's held, there's a real estate agent's name on that. And so in in Queensland, 89% of rentals are held professionally managed. That professionally managed. We know that. In in New South Wales, where he is, the stats worse, it's 93%. And we suspect that's similar in Melbourne as well. So this whole article that came out, I I think it was to drive more business to him, as you would assume he wants more people on on the rent roll. But I I look at these kind of things and I go, Why wasn't why wasn't the publication that put that out? Why would they not question that? How many, how many people do you know that are renting a property? Like if it's only one third, that means one in every three people that you know deals with the landlord. And I don't know I don't know anyone who deals with the landlord in and and

Kasey McDonald (27:32) Yeah. No, I I

Peter Schravemade (27:34) I don't I don't I don't think that's better for the tenant. I don't think that's better for the landlord. look, I don't I don't think that's better for the industry. we have such a regulated industry that it would be almost impossible for you know, those kind of numbers that he's talking about to be an actual thing. What what are your thoughts?

Kasey McDonald (27:51) Yeah, look, totally agree. I just think that we there that we are too regulated. The legislation, you know, obviously that consistently changes. And sometimes it's even hard for us as professionals in the working in the industry each and every day to keep abreast of what all of those changes are. And we certainly heard that from Aaron

Peter Schravemade (28:08) Absolutely.

Kasey McDonald (28:09) At the REI New South Wales, right? It's that there's so many. Right.

Peter Schravemade (28:11) Last week. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (28:12) And then it's like, and then how do we train on that and how do we teach? And then all of those things. So

Peter Schravemade (28:16) Yeah. How's how's the private landlords dealing with the DV regulations that are going on in New South Wales? Like

Kasey McDonald (28:20) Correct. That's right. And and and look, as a part of that think tank, that some of those things came up because of course I was in New South Wales and some of these changes. And even though they know about it and they're sitting on webinars and they're learning, they're still sort of saying, Well, hang on a minute, we've got to use this form, but then it says over here you can't do that. But then it says that you have to use that prescribed form. So they're all saying operationally and in the reality of this, how do we actually make sure we are doing the right thing? So there's still so much complexity. even if there's something in black and white that says you've got to do something. So there's no way in Australia that a private landlord would know what to do. It's not just simply here's a property, collecting the rent and I'm gonna lodge a bond. It is like it's not what this industry is about anymore.

Peter Schravemade (29:08) Well, I'd go as far I'd go as far to say that you and I have operated in the industry and still today we would not like, you know, if if if if that's not saying something, you and I would not get a we would I would not privately manage something. You know, it just even the ones that I in the dwellings I had who were in the same building as me, I still got a professional manager. Anyway, I I think I could

Kasey McDonald (29:30) Mm-hmm. definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (29:33) Even create an argument as to why that would be more affordable.

Kasey's stepdaughter and the private lease that contradicted the Act

Kasey McDonald (29:37) Mm-hmm. Well, I'll just share a a bit of a personal story here. So, you know, my stepdaughter and her partner have been renting a little place and they are it is it is in a building and it is actually through a private landlord. And fortunate they've you know looking for something bigger was able to to achieve that. And she's like, okay, we just signed a new tenancy agreement. And so we're I said, Okay, well, you know, let's talk through. What you now need to do in terms of your break lease, let's have a look at it, get on RTA so that you can understand what it is that you need to do. Reading up the terms of her existing agreement and what was placed in that agreement from that private landlord actually contradicted the Act. In fact, what points that were in there

Peter Schravemade (30:22) Wouldn't have been legal.

Kasey McDonald (30:23) Were actually illegal. It wasn't so the tenancy agreement was in fact fully invalid. And I said, walk in, hand the keys back. And tenancy agreement can be ended, right? This is the this document is not even actually even legally binding. but as then as a part of that process, the they've gone, okay, here's my notice. Let's say do the right thing though, pr do what you're required to do. And then the landlord's gone, well, because it's a break lease, you've now got to find me a tenant, you've got to so all of the wrong total pieces of information. She's super overwhelmed, 22, not too sure of herself, but as then just trusting, of course, what this individual is certainly saying. So and and that's I think the key here as well. So we we this this kind of information, I guess, or these kind of platforms, for any, I guess, you know, landlords and or tenants who are actually looking, be really cautious about this because I'd like to understand as well as a part of this, not only how many private landlords has he got utilising that, but what kind of training, coaching, education is he providing the right types of forms.

Kasey McDonald (31:26) You know, all of those things, what is he actually doing as a part of that platform to ensure that those private landlords are actually acting correctly?

83.1 per cent of infringement notices go to private lessors

Peter Schravemade (31:34) I'm sure there's there's some things in there, but how how's this for some stats? So the RTA June quarter 2026 quarter, a so the 83% of penalty infringement notices that were issued to to either you know whoever is managing the property, 83.1% of them went to private lessors. So These are these are people doing the wrong thing by their tenant. so you can't even create an argument for it's going to be better for the tenant because the RTA

Kasey McDonald (32:07) Correct. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (32:08) Sta stats say it that's completely not the case. Whereas in in in real estate, it sits around 15% and has for some time. So you know, there's there's a whole heap of them. There's like the top offence is non lodgement of bond, which you want, unlawful entry. failure to keep receipts or records. Like these are just these are just minor ones. Can you imagine some of the other ones that we have? But they these are all RTA stats. Not the this is not stuff that I'm fabricating. So, you know, very much thank you for the article, RentBetter. It made me laugh, but I'm gonna stand down on that one. If you happen to have read it, I would I would file that one under T for trash. moving right along let's let's go to let's go to something else. speaking of regulatory bodies, we've got

Kasey McDonald (32:55) Exactly, right?

Consumer Affairs Victoria: one agency fined, two more in court over bonds

Peter Schravemade (32:58) We've we've got a Consumer Affairs Victoria. yeah, again, they yeah, they're out there. So

Kasey McDonald (33:03) Yet again, they're out in force, right?

Peter Schravemade (33:06) The government's falling. Nero is playing his violin in the office while the whole of Melbourne burns. But Consumer Affairs Victoria for the first time, they've got a bit of teeth and they're out there hunting agents. So we've got two two two one agency fined, two others are facing court over late bond. Payments. Again, I'm not sure why this is making news. It appears as though they are out there saying we need we're doing something about this. The big bad our real estate agent, we're getting them. but yeah, that look, this is under the the Victorian bond crackdown. and we've spoken about this, I think, on three episodes right now. this is just a continuation of that. Yeah.

Kasey McDonald (33:45) Yeah. Yeah. I think look, we we've spoken about the fact that CAV are just focusing their energy on exploiting the real estate agency and the property managers as a part of this process instead of looking at, well, how many, you know, how long are property managers and and landlords and tenants waiting to actually have their legitimate cases heard? Like where where's the timing in that or where's the focus on that in order for people to achieve

Peter Schravemade (34:10) Yeah. Yep.

Kasey McDonald (34:13) Outcomes? which could be also impacting, you know, people financially. But instead they've got this crackdown. And I get it, it's not about doing the wrong thing as well, right? We absolutely should

Peter Schravemade (34:22) Yeah. We should we should be cracking down on these people. Yeah. But yeah.

Kasey McDonald (34:26) Be cracking down on them, but it's just what all we're hearing is this from them, and we're not hearing about some of the other things that they probably should be focusing their energy on.

Peter Schravemade (34:36) Yeah, yeah. And like I'm with you on that, I think we need to fix the the the like there's a whole whole heap of waiting lists for tenants to get their money back or or or owners to get their money back or whatever it is. yeah, it just doesn't seem to be functional down there at the moment.

Kasey McDonald (34:50) No. Have they got an election coming up? Am I hearing this? Is there is there an election coming? Yep. Right. Okay. Well we'll see what happens. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (34:55) Are you here? I look up yeah, there is. There's one in November. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. Yeah, yeah. It'll you know, I think I think we'll be if if if that government get ousted, we'll be throwing a party on behalf of the Melbourneites. I spoke to another one yesterday who's pitching who's pitching a product. And this is the the thing. Like I've I've spoken to four different Melbourne startups in the past two weeks, and all of them are wanting to leave the state. they they This is, you know, it's that's anecdotal, but my gosh, you know, it's not looking wonderful. shall we move on away from that? Here's here's one

Kasey McDonald (35:30) No, no. Yes.

Adam Docking assaulted putting out a sign in Vermont

Peter Schravemade (35:33) About agent safety, which always should be top of mind. I think no agent should go out there feeling unsafe or property manager in particular. They they're also in that scenario. We heard that from Aaron. this is the former REIV president, Aaron Dock Adam Docking. I don't think I've met Adam. yet I've met a few of them, but

Kasey McDonald (35:54) No Mm.

Peter Schravemade (35:55) He he has been would you call it mugged? I don't know. he was just before noon, Saturday, 19th of September. He's placing open for inspection signs in Vermont. He returned to his car to find a man getting in. The key was in his pocket, so he locked the car and confronted the man. He's been punched four or five times to the face and chest, phone and wallet taken from car. And the offender has then fled to another vehicle nearby. I mean A Adam comes out with some really good points from this one, right? He's

Kasey McDonald (36:27) Mm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. He I think the key here is, you know, well, certainly his is his advice is, you know, to be aware of your surroundings, right? It's regardless of where we are, it's, you know, don't be blinked. make sure that we've got our eyes open. It's just like he did this, just putting a sign out, right? So he's it's obviously one of those little kind of open for inspections on the side of the road. you know, don't leave the keys in the car. Just Don't leave your engine running. Like all of those different things. I think it's about just making sure that you are super aware of your own surroundings in those situations as well. He was really lucky, I

Peter Schravemade (37:05) Yeah, yeah, like

Kasey McDonald (37:06) Think. Like it wasn't worse, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (37:08) Well, the guy didn't have the guy didn't have a weapon. Yeah, it didn't have a weapon. So, you know, yeah, I I I think he's even saying that he would change the way he went about it in the future. But I mean, it's shocking that anyone in any kind of professional sense should be come under threat from you know, a violence or anything like that. So I yeah I don't I don't really know what the other guy's motivations were, but it doesn't really matter. Probably a fair warning sign though to anyone who's in the profession, particularly property managers, but also sales agents who are at you know, you might want to review your security protocols, the way that you operate, to make sure that it it's it's best practice. I I I work with, as part of the REACH program, I work with a company in America called Tether RE.

Peter Schravemade (37:59) And they've got a an early warning system in America that actually alerts people to dangers happening in there. And I'm not sure if they they operate here in Australia, but you know, there are there actually are sick you know, there are things that assist you in this. Like in that particular instance, you could have triggered it and the cops would have been called straight away. Doesn't necessarily help you in every scenario, but you know,

Agent safety protocols, Tether RE and the routine inspection alone

Kasey McDonald (38:22) No.

Peter Schravemade (38:22) Maybe it's just a bit of an early warning to go and have a look at your security protocols and make sure that everyone's covered.

Kasey McDonald (38:29) Yeah, definitely. You know, especially property managers, you know, typically you're doing those routine inspections alone. you've got multiple house keys on you. you know, you're going into other people's residences. And as much as you're, you know, cautious in what you do, you just don't know what situation you're putting yourself in. So I think as well in that, if you ever are feeling unsafe, you know, don't continue. you know, make the call back to the office. And jump back in your car, of course, and and remove yourself from from anything that you're feeling uncomfortable with.

Peter Schravemade (39:04) Yep, absolutely. Yeah, your safety is way way more important than renting a property or selling one. So yeah, just bear that in mind.

Kasey McDonald (39:08) Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah.

Nearly half of share house renters are over 40

Peter Schravemade (39:12) Timely reminder. this next one here is is interesting and it'll be good because we got Paul Tommasini from the Tenancy Skills Institu Institute joining us in, you know, not not not too far from now on the program. and he's doing some massive work in this area, but This article is is suggesting that nearly half of Aussies renting in share houses are at least 40 years old. So 50% are 40 years old or old or more. That kind of surprised me. I didn't I didn't think that that would be the case. the largest single group is that early 20s to to is only 16%. And I I wonder if that's reporting. I wonder if if people in share econom accommodation that are over 40 are actually on the books. Whereas, you know, like I used to have mates come over to my place and they would couch surf and we wouldn't describe that as being shared accommodation, right? Like that that was just what happened. It was, you know, Greg was visiting, he had uni the next day. So he'd crash like for three or four nights. What are your thoughts?

Kasey McDonald (40:15) Yeah, yeah, I'm not too sure on that point, Pete, but I did actually see in the news a few weeks ago when they had the Queensland sleep out, the CEO sleep out, I think it was, something similar. And the statistics that they actually shared there was in Queensland. The majority of that are in a flatmate or sharing accommodation and/or potentially can't and therefore then become homeless are actually women. and over the age of fifty. So

Peter Schravemade (40:47) I think you'll have to ask Paul about that because I think the stats are they are the hot fastest growing demographic.

Kasey McDonald (40:54) Right. Okay. so yeah, I I'm really looking forward to chatting to him about that because I think this kind of i i is and relatable. But I have seen that just simply because of the fact that going and getting property on your own. For example, I've seen closer to the city here in Brisbane, a one bedroom apartment. So as you know, single, if you that's Female, male, whatever you, you know, you could be working, but to go to do that, you're paying about $600 a week in rent. So if we think about what percentage of that income is that person paying that rent? So is it actually then that they're assessing and saying, well, maybe it's actually easier that I just go to a share accommodation, rent a room. I'm not then needing anything other than my belongings and a bed, for example, and I might be only paying $250, 300. dollars a week instead of six hundred for an entire place on my own. So yeah.

Peter Schravemade (41:53) Yeah, well I I can I can tell you my daughter's renting on the Gold Coast and she has a share house. Like she's she's the the leaseholder of a share house and it has been just eye-opening watching the applications come in. It's just when you know, she's gone for a year. Like they they say everyone's after accommodation, but that hasn't truly proven to be the case. she's she's not on the glitter strip and so a lot of people don't don't want that. she's off that. but then the the second part about that is yeah, I definitely noticed the over 40 year olds who are applying and and their applications would actually be much more difficult. these people had plenty like in many cases, their life possessions with them and they they would need bigger spaces, they would need they would have really specific requirements that the that the 18 to 25 year olds didn't have.

Peter Schravemade (42:52) Some of them wouldn't even have furniture and they'd be going, look, we'll just go out and buy it if we need it and we'll discard it at the end of it. So it's it's not an ideal circumstance, but yeah, to rent something on the Gold Coast, let's say you're a student there by yourself, you're looking at a minimum of eight hundred and then upwards from there. Sorry, I was about to say upwards from there,

Kasey McDonald (43:11) Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think

Peter Schravemade (43:15) You know.

Kasey McDonald (43:16) Yeah, I think some of the statistics are really interesting. So yeah, really looking forward to hearing, you know, Paul, you know, sharing this as to what they're seeing out of that Tenancy Institute around some of these numbers. because yeah, I guess it's everyone's of you know, circumstances are certainly different. It'd be interesting to see and I'm not sure sure if it was in that article, Pete, around whether the demographics were females to males. Did you read anything within that that shared that? No. Hmm.

Peter Schravemade (43:42) It didn't it did no, it didn't say that in the article. No. It was it was just referring to the actual the age group. Hm but yeah.

Kasey McDonald (43:49) Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So really, really interesting. But look, the the tenancy legislation laws now allow certainly more for subletting. And and I have seen many now as well. a lot of discussions were in New South Wales that also it's occurring and also in regional locations where they're they're not being able to afford the entire rent themselves. And so they're either looking To to rent with somebody else, or they're subleasing those rooms out to help pay the rent.

Quick hits: Victorian auction rules start without the paperwork, Jellis Craig's worst market in 30 years

Peter Schravemade (44:25) Yep, absolutely. Now we've got two quick points to cover before we get to our guest for today. The first one is we've been over this enough. the new Victorian auction laws and set date laws, they start next week. So yeah, the mandatory documents and price setting rules still haven't been released. So Any Victorian agent this weekend is working blind, which is a bit of a problem. I would refer you to REIV. They're gonna have details on that. Now the second second one's also from Melbourne. I see the CEO of Jellis Craig, Andrew McCann, has labelled it one of the worst markets he's seen in 30 years, with job cuts likely, he's saying. Now, Jellis Craig is Victorian, so not a national. But yeah, he definitely painted a bleak picture. He was saying that nearly a hundred percent of his agents, I think he said, were actually their job at the moment was lowering expectations of sellers. So, you know, that doesn't sound like much of a fun market to be in at the moment. And I'm hoping things turn around at the next election.

Kasey McDonald (45:32) Yeah, definitely. I I also heard that on the ground in New South Wales that many of the agents there, or if they're not considering a merge, the and I'm talking probably those smaller ones, also with then a smaller rent roll. and because the sales market has softened, the they're, you know, the sales aren't coming in. So from a cash flow perspective, you know, they're really looking at it thinking, well, how long can we sustain ourselves in business? So if they're not merging with a bigger business, they are either choosing to downscale. And what I mean by that is that they're looking at the agents that they've got. And some of them are unfortunately, you know, moving on their sales associates. So, you know, they're getting rid of any apprentices that they've got and those that maybe aren't as experienced in today's market. and just keeping on those that are have got those negotiation skills to be able to to can you continue working in in in a tougher, tougher market condition.

Peter Schravemade (46:32) Yep. Makes sense. Makes sense to me. I've heard I've heard all of that. so you know, if you if you're in Melbourne at the moment, we're thinking of you. Let's hope for a a successful result at the next election, might turn things around. Maybe, maybe. I'm delighted to welcome our guest, gu special guest for Friday, the twenty fifth of September. We have all the way from the Brisbane region, Paul Tommasini of the Tenancy Skills Institute. Paul, welcome to Before the Weekend. How are you?

Interview: Paul Tommasini, Tenancy Skills Institute

Paul Tommasini (47:02) I'm great. Thanks for having me. Appreciate being here.

Peter Schravemade (47:04) No, no. No, you're most welcome. We were we were actually talking about your report. Well, how about we start with that? What do you do? What do you actually do?

Kasey McDonald (47:09) Yes.

Paul Tommasini (47:11) Yeah, so look, the Tenancy Skills Institute, we were we established about almost 10 years ago, next January, I think it's 10 years that we started this. And Tenancy Skills Institute is a homelessness response. So we are part of an organisation called In Community, and In Community is a specialist homelessness service. We've been operating since the early nineteen eighties. And about it would have been probably about twelve, thirteen years ago. We started to have some conversations with property managers, which really profoundly changed the way in which we viewed how we could address homelessness. So from then we set out on a mission to design something which was delivered and developed in partnership with industry so that we could create pathways for people into properties initially through education, but more recently, understanding that. those relationships can also help us as a homelessness service to keep people in their houses. So everything we do, we still do our homelessness services, but over time we want to do less of that work when people have become homeless and be further upstream and and preventing this well before it happens. So the report, The Two Tides of Homelessness, is really our snapshot of what our risk looks like, but also provide some insight into some work we've been doing.

Paul Tommasini (48:29) That's shown some really good results in terms of being able to turn that tide around.

Peter Schravemade (48:35) Yeah, well we we looked at that and there were a couple of amazing stats to come out of there. Like I think I think you had a stat and I don't have it in front of me, but I I believe it was like almost fifty you were able to resurrect, if that's the right word, almost fifty percent of the the the tenants that were in crisis from a a negative action, like whether they they become homeless or they they they're moved on out of the property. I th I think that was the stat that you gave. That that was part of that. Is that correct?

Half of failed tenancies could be saved, the Mackay pilot pushed it past 90 per cent

Paul Tommasini (49:04) Yeah. So property managers are telling us about fifty percent of all the tenancies on their rent rolls that failed could have been saved with fairly simple interventions. Our case study and the work that we've done in Brisbane and Mackay has shown that we can push that number up to ninety percent plus of the tenancies that would have otherwise failed and people who would have otherwise been lining up at the doors of homelessness services and we can keep those the people in the prodi. And the cool thing about this is we're connecting them to services that already exist in the community. So it's not even as if we've had to find new money that to deliver these services. These services already exist.

Peter Schravemade (49:43) Well that that's that's almost unbelievable. So if I'm a property manager sitting here and I've got my rent roll and and hopefully none of our tenants are in any kind of financial strife, but but but Kasey and I and you know that that's more than likely not the case. so the one the the way this works, if I'm if I'm misunderstanding it, is you've got a product called PM Assist. That tenant would be referred thro down the PM Assist t funnel, if you want to call it that. And you would then go work in that inside that region to get some kind of assistance for the tenant who is struggling with payments. Is that is that the way I'm hearing this?

How PM Assist works: a two-minute referral instead of a triage queue

Paul Tommasini (50:23) Yep, exactly. Yeah. PM Assist is about taking the people who know that there's an issue, understand that something's not right, and connecting them to the supports that are available without them needing to actually have a really good understanding of what is available. Because once we get into supports available, it does become quite complex. And for a property manager navigating that, it is a it can be an overwhelming space, but also it can take a lot of time, which property managers tend not to have. They have a lot of a lot on their plate.

Kasey McDonald (50:53) Yeah, so

Peter Schravemade (50:53) Kasey.

Kasey McDonald (50:54) So Paul, this is really great the service, right? And I think I shared as well when we were talking through the report that when I had my rent roll many moons ago, that there was some similar services available and in particular around I think sort of Lifeline, the Salvos, et cetera, where they would s help support and whether that was you know, financial support or if it was clothing, furniture, all of those different types of things to help. those tenants. So, you know, fro from this PM Assist, what's the role of the property manager in this case? So for those listening, how do they know how to, I guess, start the conversation with you or the or the renter, really, right? Like, cause sometimes that's the challenging part as well.

Paul Tommasini (51:44) Exactly. And PM Assist is about that connection piece. So it's about understanding that property managers' role in this is to recognise, respond and refer. It's not to fix the issue. And without this tool, property managers are left basically recognising and then trying to have to resolve. And if you don't have the time and if you don't have the skill set to do that, which we don't expect property managers to have, right? We don't want property managers to become social workers. What we know is that that piece in the middle is where the challenge has been for people. So if you walk into a property manager's office and we do this all out of Australia, we'll go and talk to property managers and they know where the where the people on their rent roll are struggling. That so recognise is is is there, respond and how to have that conversation is something that we're working on through some CPD products to help property

Kasey McDonald (52:36) Okay, great.

Paul Tommasini (52:37) Managers be able to navigate that that process of the conversation. in order to be able to then make an effective referral. Where that referral happens, it's it's like a first aid response essentially. You you've recognised you've done an initial response and then you've connected to the people who can actually help that and resolve that situation. The other thing for property managers is it it allows them to provide some support, but not go really deep into that support because we know oftentimes when we go in too deep, often then those boundaries are blurred and then yeah it comes becomes hard to get back to managing that pro property and being in an industry which is very legislatively driven, property managers have to still be able to to do their work in the way that their standards tell them they have to do.

Kasey McDonald (53:24) Yeah. And can I ask Paul, like in some of the stats, are you finding that it it's more of the a demographic of a female to a male ratio? Like is it more females versus males in this situation? And is there a higher age bracket? Is it younger generation? Like what are you who are you sort of seeing that is requesting

Paul Tommasini (53:46) Yeah. Look.

Kasey McDonald (53:48) These services?

Who is at risk, and why you now need $100,000 a year to rent affordably

Paul Tommasini (53:50) So what we would say is that financial hardship affects everyone, right? It's it's a cr that's a universal thing at the moment. And yeah, e even if you look at that the old rule that we used to go by thirty percent of someone's income was what was considered affordable, yeah, you you need a hundred thousand dollar a year income now. So there's a lot of people that aren't in that sort of category. what I'd say is the f i in a family unit, for example, we tend to find that the you know, the female within that family tends to be the ones referring, they tend to be the ones that seek help earlier. but that doesn't mean that they're the only ones that are experiencing those issues.

Kasey McDonald (54:31) Interesting. Hmm.

Peter Schravemade (54:32) Paul, who who pays for this?

Paul Tommasini (54:35) So at the moment, our work, we are a we're we're a registered charity. Our work is I would say we call it bootstrapped at the moment. We we are self-funded and we're doing this as a demonstration to show what can be done. and we're at that point

Peter Schravemade (54:51) That's incredible.

Paul Tommasini (54:51) Now where we're ready to scale it up. So we've been doing this on a shoestring for the last 18 months to demonstrate we can actually bring our sectors together. and the work that's actually the the I guess the heavy lifting which is that intervention, the r rental payments, the ongoing case management support, that's all linking into existing funded governments, government funded services.

Peter Schravemade (55:15) Yep. Yep. And and I I am of the opinion, I I think we we spoke during the week and you were saying to me that there were instances where a a tenant had been referred to you and they had they had actually tried to seek help at the same institution that you you you eventually connected them with, but you you're even saying that your system has You know, the ability to cut through some of the the red tape or the bureaucracy and get these people the the assistance that they need. i is is that is that correct? Is that like a

Paul Tommasini (55:51) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And we've got, you know, front door versus side door entrance, right? And one of our challenges with the way our systems are designed in in our social services sector is we have intake systems which triage people and and there's a big lineup at that door. if someone's in immediate need of assistance to keep them in their property, especially where you've got property managers who have very strict timelines to activate you know, notices and and processes through the tribunal. We need to be able to be really agile and respond really quickly to those. So by using this, we connect them into exactly where they need to be. So essentially the property manager becomes part of that triage process. So the property manager's identified this is the exact issue. We've connected the person to exactly where they need to be rather than just giving them a number and telling them to go to that service. So

Paul Tommasini (56:47) Essentially that means that that process becomes a lot quicker, becomes a lot more effective. And the likelihood of keeping people in their homes when that happens is a lot more because if we're waiting for services that might have a long wait to get through that triage process because there's a lot of people at the front end, that that can add a lot of time onto this and time is absolutely of the essence when we're dealing with tenancies that are at risk of failing.

Kasey McDonald (57:16) Yeah, Paul, can you sorry Paul would can sorry,

Peter Schravemade (57:16) Have you sorry. you go.

Kasey McDonald (57:18) Sorry, Pete. I just with that, can you I'd love to, you know, hear as a part of this a really great success story and maybe just sharing what of course you can as a part of that in terms of you know, is it rent recovery and is it how long? Is it a portion? You know, just something that I guess allows the property managers to kind of put something into reality that they might be trying to and listening to this think. Have I got some of these but they're not too sure how to identify them?

Paul Tommasini (57:47) Yeah. So look what what I would say is everyone on your rent roll that is at risk of failing is someone who we can refer. we we like to work with the property managers around those tenancies that you know they're really wanting to save because we know that we've got active partners in there and we can get everyone around really quickly to to rally around that family, that that individual, and and keep that tenancy alive. But the more complex issues, and we know that there's a lot of tenancies that do have more complex and deep rooted issues like hoarding and squalor and you know neighbourhood fatigue complaints, those kind of things. The services are are there to assist in that area as well. Those those issues tend to take a lot longer to resolve, though, because they're a lot longer to get to the point of this and they're a lot longer to come out. in terms of good news stories, there's plenty of them, but

Paul Tommasini (58:45) Th there's a couple which we highlighted in the report of Amber and Michael who are two two case studies which went through PM Assist and there were people that probably didn't really have much hope for where they were going to end up. And I think that's the biggest thing. It's around, you know, people sitting in their homes right now feeling helpless and feeling like there's nothing available because they've hit brick walls everywhere they've gone. And one of the I think one of the things that they both mentioned in that was how heartening it was for them when their property manager cared to actually want to keep them in their tenancy and to make that referral through PM Assist. So all PM Assist does is make that pathway really simple. So end to end it's a couple of minutes to make that referral. There's a conversation with the tenant that happens beforehand and then work afterwards. But by making that as simple as we possibly can,

Paul Tommasini (59:42) It enables a property manager, in you know, we know through our conversations with property managers that most property managers are really compassionate people, but they are operating within really strict legislation. So, you know, that they appear to be the rule keepers all the time, you know, that's the the common perception of property managers. But underneath that is someone who actually you cares. You know, they care about the people that are in their houses. They also care about the people who own those houses and they want to have good outcomes for them as well. So in order to bring that together. were able to facilitate that. But in the case of the two case studies within the report, I think the biggest thing for them was actually knowing that their property manager did care about their tenancy, as opposed to this common narrative that the property manager doesn't care. They're just there to get as much money, kick you out, and then get the next person. So it challenges those perceptions that people have as well, which I think is great.

Kasey McDonald (1:00:34) Yeah, I think that's really awesome. Cause look, it is really tough. And having been an ex property manager, you are bound by these legislations. And if you don't issue that form at the correct time, then if it ends up in a tribunal matter, you just basically get thrown out because you didn't do what you were required to do. Then you've got an unhappy investor of that property and and all of these things, right? But it's not that you actually want to issue the form, it's just sometimes that you actually have to. Yeah.

Paul Tommasini (1:01:00) Yeah, absolutely. And I think we we recognise that because we can't we can't expect property managers not to follow their process. But what we want to do is we want to create an opportunity where they're not going to need that process because they can resolve the issue a better way. And

Kasey McDonald (1:01:15) Mm-hmm. Yep.

Paul Tommasini (1:01:17) So this comes into a space of you know, w it's early intervention, but it's very early intervention. So it's where where we're starting to see those first cracks emerging. It's about having those conversations, about getting that connection. Yeah, that works for everyone because you know, most people know in their life when things aren't right, you know, they can't afford rent, they can't afford the bills. But often we keep our head buried in the sand for quite a while before we actually admit that there's a problem. And usually when we admit that there's a problem in the in the case of a tenancy, it's when we have a tribunal hearing, right? It's way too late. Yeah, absolutely, Peter.

Peter Schravemade (1:01:46) Too late. Mm.

Kasey McDonald (1:01:47) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, definitely.

Paul Tommasini (1:01:50) And what we what we see from that is That costs our system so much more. So there's an emotional cost for the tenant. There's a cost for the property manager and the business because they have to put more time into it. There's a cost for the owner with lost rent. But when they hit our homelessness system, QCAT, everything.

Peter Schravemade (1:02:06) QCAT, QCAT, tribunal, QCAT, everything everything adds up.

Kasey McDonald (1:02:09) Yeah. Hmm.

A hundred dollars a day: why two weeks' delay is the expensive part

Paul Tommasini (1:02:11) And then it costs our system because the r the the responses become so much more eff expensive, especially if we've got we we use seven hundred dollars a week as a a rent because it's w a hundred dollars a day, it's an easy one to work with, right? So every day we miss out and there's no rent paid is compounded by a hundred dollars a day. So it becomes a much bigger and bigger issue. So if we wait two weeks, you know, it becomes really expensive to actually turn that issue around.

How to plug your rent roll in: Ipswich, Toowoomba, Moreton Bay and Mackay

Kasey McDonald (1:02:38) Yeah, agreed.

Peter Schravemade (1:02:38) Yeah. Paul, what what so let's say you're a property manager and you're listening to this or a principal who has a rent roll, what what how can you help how do they how do they tap into your system and allow this like is it is simply a referral? Is there something that they need to do?

Paul Tommasini (1:02:54) Yeah. Yeah, so we're we're getting ready to scale this up. So we want all all agencies involved in this, as many real estate offices with rent rolls as possible getting involved in this and making these referrals. at the moment we're still anywhere.

Peter Schravemade (1:03:07) Anyway? Any

Paul Tommasini (1:03:08) Yep. Our our our goal is to have this all across the country. that will be a staged process of course, because we need to it's it's quite relational as well because we need to take people on that journey and and it's something that's new, but what we what we know with that is where we've done it. So we've been focusing on Ipswich, Toowoomba, Moreton Bay and Mackay. And in those areas, it's been embraced by property managers, it's been embraced by the services who are receiving the referrals. And those relationships are then starting to build. So when we create that common goal of a tenancy that succeeds, regardless of why our motivation is to do that, then we actually start to see some really good results come from that. In terms of

Paul Tommasini (1:03:51) Agencies that want to get involved. we're we'd love to talk to anyone so they can reach out to us via our website and which is tenancyskills.com.au and one of our team will get back in contact and have a chat about how how they can be involved. And in the meantime though if even if we're not in an area and someone's listening and they've got a tenant or some tenants that they want to get assistance for, reach out, we'll find the services for them and we'll help them connect into those services so that they can keep their people in their properties.

Peter Schravemade (1:04:23) That's amazing, mate. And we we

Kasey McDonald (1:04:23) Excellent. Mm.

Peter Schravemade (1:04:25) Will put all the links that you mentioned up. We'll put any any way to contact you beneath the episode. But I I really appreciate

Paul Tommasini (1:04:30) Yeah, awesome.

Peter Schravemade (1:04:31) You coming on and telling us about this today. I think this is a really fantastic tool if it can be leveraged in the right way for a a principal or a rent roll.

Paul Tommasini (1:04:41) Absolutely. Well, thanks for having me. Appreciate your time.

Kasey McDonald (1:04:43) Thanks, Paul.

Peter Schravemade (1:04:44) Anytime. Anytime, mate.

Kasey McDonald (1:04:46) Well, that was fantastic interview with Paul from the Tenancy Skills Institute. we'll make sure that we've got all of the links, yeah, available. But what really, really great service. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome service.

Wrap: eXp, RentBetter, stay safe, and the last free weekend before November

Peter Schravemade (1:04:53) Yeah, he was great. The good sir good service, right? Mm. Yeah. It it just seems to be a no brainer to me. If he if he can save any tenant and it doesn't end you in QCAT or NCAT and NSW Cat or VCAT, it seems like a no brainer.

Kasey McDonald (1:05:11) Whatever cat, right? whatever cat you might not want to go to. And as an ex-property manager, no one likes going there. So yeah, I think it's really important. Make sure that you dive in, jump onto their website once we share through those links, learn about what that offering is available to you, property managers that are listening, and of course, principals as well, reach out, learn about it, and you know, do that assessment within your rent roll and maybe you you could identify. Some that are at that distress level and that you might be able to refer along to this service. So fantastic. but what yeah, look, you know, a busy week around the grounds, Pete, you know, a little slower, of course. The market is softening. that we're still hearing that. But a big wrap-up of today's week. We are hoping to hear a little bit more about what's occurred with the eXp. So for anyone who knows, make sure you do send us through an email, hello@beforetheweekend.com.

Kasey McDonald (1:06:08) Share us through any f you know, interesting insights about what potentially is happening there through that space. RentBetter. maybe you'd like to go there and have a little bit of a laugh like Pete did and or put that straight into your recycle bin. I don't know, right? That that I'm just, you know.

Peter Schravemade (1:06:26) Well, I'm I'm happy that I'm happy that they got their raise. I just yeah, I I just you know, when you're reading when you're reading stats that are just completely fabricated, yeah, it's it's interesting. Anyway.

Kasey McDonald (1:06:38) Yeah, absolutely. of course, be safe, everyone out there. and you know, Adam Docking, of course, had that incident occur. we don't want that to occur for anyone. It's absolutely not nice. I'm certainly glad that Adam, you know, it wasn't anything more than what it was. And there was no, of course, knives or guns or anything like that that were certainly involved in this. So but those listening, make sure you're safe at your open homes. And property managers make sure that you've got those precautions in place as well when you're entering for routine inspections. but we've seen, you know, so much coming out this week again around the RBA forecast. Not decided yet. We won't dwell on that. I'm sure, as you said, Pete, we'll see it to hit social media maybe before. We'll know. We'll absolutely know. We'll get a

Peter Schravemade (1:07:24) Yeah, we will. We'll know if the interest rates go up or not.

Kasey McDonald (1:07:29) Trillion emails, we'll get all of these posts on social. and the world's gonna know exactly what's going on. But in closing out the the week, anything interesting happening for the weekend for you, Pete?

Peter Schravemade (1:07:43) I'm headed back to my hometown for a personal event, but not really. well, I mean, that's that's that's gonna be exciting for us, but not not that I can think of. This is the last weekend before the end of November that I don't have a real estate function on.

Kasey McDonald (1:08:02) Right.

Peter Schravemade (1:08:03) So this is this is this is it. The rest of them from here to the end of the year, I've got awards nights coming out of my wahoo. so there's there's conferences, there's events. yeah. So this is this is a really busy season we're entering at the moment. So yeah. looking forward to one last weekend break.

Kasey McDonald (1:08:23) One break, hey. Well, yeah, look, the weather's obviously not shiny. It's a bit dull here in Queensland. We're expecting a little bit of rain. So there goes my plan to sit by the pool and do absolutely squat nothing and maybe, you know, read a book. but yeah, so it looks like we'll be inside for those also in Queensland. But thanks everyone for listening again for our 20th episode. We really appreciate your support here at Before the Weekend. As we've always said, Pete and I over a beer at the pub thought, hey, let's do this and pull it together. So we're so appreciative and grateful for those that do listen in every week. And for any new listeners, thanks for joining us on Before the Weekend podcast. we'll close out the week today. have a fantastic weekend for those who are out there selling, leasing, and doing whatever it is that you're doing within the property industry on the weekend. Have a great one in your hometown, Pete, with the fams.

Peter Schravemade (1:09:20) Mm, thanks.

Kasey McDonald (1:09:21) And yeah, we'll share all the links. of course you can find us on all of the streaming sites and of course at beforetheweekend.com. Have a fantastic weekend, everyone. Thank you. Yeah.

Peter Schravemade (1:09:29) Enjoy the pool. Enjoy the pool, Kasey, and we'll catch you everyone next week.

Sign-off